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Messages - syd16

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Full terms of the contract here:

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Here are the terms of the contract (minus any payment details):

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Yes itís paid by direct debit.

They've told me it would be added as an additional charge (£65 penalty + £15 administration) to my account which would come out of my usual lease payment next month.

My thoughts exactly, I don't understand how I could have appealed it once they already paid the fine. It is a personal lease.

How do I proceed and what would be involved if I pursue it?

Itís a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which has now passed) but I didnít get a response here in time so didnít bother.

PCN: AF98214426

Thanks for the replies.

Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.

OK, I agree it's harsh and it's a cash cow for the council but just wanted to know if it's worth the risk of paying out the full penalty. Any previous experience of such de minimis cases and whether it's been won at Tribunal?

The whole PCN please.

Attached below.

You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for you to move forward a few inches and clear the box.  Due to the level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you could or couldn't have done this.  As well as de minimis I'd also challenge on this ground.

Sorry a bit unclear on this argument. Are you saying that if there was room in front me to move into but I am still stationary in the YBJ then does that mean I wouldn't be committing an offence?

For a de minimis challenge, what would I state as my reasons for challenging the PCN, is there a template I can use?


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Another PCN received from Redbridge council for entering and stopping in a Yellow Box Junction.

I was turning left into Horns Road and as the traffic moved I thought I had enough space to enter and exit the YBJ. Admittedly the rear right tyre is still in the box as I stopped behind traffic but most of my car is out and seems a bit harsh since I am not affecting the flow of traffic which is the purpose of the YBJ.

Any grounds for appeal?

Council video:

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Apologies, the tribunal site has a form to fill in the reasons for appeal and a section for uploading evidence so I thought I needed to state my reason and that you were referring to the evidence section alone.

Nonetheless, I received this letter today so the council are not contesting my appeal! Thanks everyone for your advice esp Pastmybest, just shows it's always worth fighting your case if you believe in it  :)

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Thanks, I have 28 days from the rejection letter date (15th Dec) to appeal so have until next Friday 12th Jan to do it. What is the served/delivered argument?

Thanks all, I just saw the recent replies now as was waiting on Pastmybest to return from holiday. I will further appeal and take it to Tribunal since the fine will be the full rate now. I have no experience in this, any suggestions on my I just state the same reasons as before in my appeal? Also any tips on the tribunal process?

Hi, I received the council rejected my appeal. They believe the YBJ does "conform to the principles of where and how this type of junction should be marked. The sides of the box are approximately at right angles to the flow of traffic and is therefore compliant with the TSRGD 2016".

So they haven't specifically addressed my point about the depot not being a publicly accessible road.

Should I further appeal it to the ETA?

Thanks all, I have logged my representation using MrChips' draft response. I have also included couple of photos of the entrance into the depot which clearly shows no access available for unauthorised persons. Will provide updates here once I get a response from the council.

Yes understood. Do you think they have any grounds to contest my appeal? What would you do in my case?

According to the legislation:

ďbox junctionĒ means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which isó
(a)at a junction between two or more roads

So it boils down to whether the turning into the depot can be classified as a separate road. I donít see any mention in the rules that the road needs to be publicly accessible - I donít recall any signs to say access is unauthorised for the public. I remember in the past anyone could drive in to the depot to collect recycle bins although that service is now stopped.

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