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Messages - tincombe

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1
They've got themselves into a real pickle!

If Gladstones have been instructed by Bromley council that they, the council, have already obtained a court order, namely a warrant of control in respect of an unpaid penalty charge, then Galdstone's mandatory duty is to issue a Notice of Enforcement, not a Letter before Claim and certainly not 'legal proceedings'.

https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/statutory-notices

Their bogus LBC is dated March, so what have you done since then?




2
IMO, TfL actions are subject to the Act and Practice Direction, in this case:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Practice%20Direction%2003-2024%20on%20behalf%20of%20ETA%2028%20November%202024%20%28PWS%29.pdf

OP, you are Ground 2. This means that TfL have options:


1. To refer the matter to the adjudicator at which point the Proper Officer 'will write' to your wife to get confirmation that reps were made. With this option the decision lies with LT whether to register TfL's referral as an appeal(para. 8), or

2. To refer the matter to the adjudicator AND re-serve the NOR, in which case no action is required of the adjudicator unless your wife fails to pay or appeal to the adjudicator within the period allowed (paras. 10 and 11).

TfL should act promptly in either case and I don't see that they would or may hold progression simply because the owner claims that a CD was broken. Under 1 above, the issue is procedural(were proper reps actually made) and if ultimately registered as an appeal(NB. not your wife's choice) then she would have plenty of time to be supplied with the CD. 2 above doesn't seem to apply because you've not suggested that a NOR has been re-served. But let's see the covering letter which came with the bundle pl. 

In short, IMO her next communication should be from LT and your wife doesn't need to do anything. However, if she doesn't have a copy of the reps, then ask for one from TfL, assuming there isn't a copy in the bundle. 

3
Then your sister is the registered keeper because this is what's held by DVLA.

I think DVLA have some criteria which they apply to RKs e.g. probably wouldn't register Mickey Mouse, but would register Mrs Brown, Mickey Mouse Enterprises, Disneyland......SW1A 2AA

Procedurally she is the RK and therefore liable. This has nothing to do with the company because they are not the addressee, this is your sister who for convenience uses the company's address.

But it would be helpful to see what's on the V5C, keep the form but change the precise names.

6
Good find stamfordman.

On *** I was, as can be seen in the council's photos, parked on double yellow lines. I am aware of the meaning of these when used in the prescribed and mandated context, namely on a road, but not when used off-street as here.

The council's position is that these alone create and mark a 'restricted area' in the car park, however, there is no legal basis for such a contention: these are authorised for use on roads only. If the council wishes to use them for a different purpose, as here, then it cannot rely on motorist have powers of clairvoyance, their meaning and the potential remedies available to the council must be brought to motorists' attention on site. Please see a recent adjudication decision on this point of law.
**********

Absent any signage to this effect, the restriction does not exist, the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

7
OP, what do you have in writing?

I think you're mixing issues here i.e. the duties which fall to the council and those which fall to you. What counts as far as you're concerned is the submission date on the OfR..which we haven't seen.

If this stated 21 Sept. then you're entitled to rely upon this and providing your initial TE was in the correct form then IMO TEC should have accepted it as being in-time. You don't know, neither are you presumed to know, about 14 days etc..., your obligation is to comply with the OfR which on its face stated 21 Sept. Given the overriding objectives of fairness and disposing of matters efficiently, then irrespective of the council's failure and TEC's inability to override whatever automatic processes they might have, they were obliged to register your TE because any error is fair and squarely the council's, not yours.

Yes, you could have recovered the situation by submitting a TE within whatever additional time allowed by TEC(which in itself proves that flexibility does exist within the system) but this shouldn't have fallen to you.

All subject to you having evidence in support of your account, of course.

8
PCN dated 30 April = day 0.

Day 14 = 13 May TODAY.

Submission within the 14-day period usually means the discount would be re-offered for unsuccessful reps.

IMO, yet another example of a council which thinks that off-street parking can be regulated using traffic signs prescribed for use on-street only.


And for good measure, the sign in the photo has the legal definition as follows:

"permit parking area”
an area—
(a)
into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5[the one in the photo); and

(b)
where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)

So there cannot be bay markings, there aren't any with this sign(when it's used as permitted i.e. on-street).

But the bozos put the sign up, so you can probably rest assured that they think it's correct. C'est la vie.


Contravention did not occur.

I parked as seen in the council's photos and, as can be seen, the sign which the CEO felt should be included as evidence simply says on its face that vehicles displaying permit **** may park beyond this point which makes my case and not the council's because this sign only has legal meaning if placed on and regulating a road, not an off-street parking area, and the inclusion of the words 'Park in marked bays only' is an oxymoron because when used correctly the sign conveys the meaning that none of the specified permit spaces beyond is or may be marked.

See Definitions 'permit parking area': https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/1


I was therefore parked where permitted, irrespective of any numbers on my permit.

I  am submitting these representations more in hope than expectation as regards the council's approach, but nonetheless confident that an adjudicator would allow an appeal by applying the law.

Wait for others and use your own words. But submit something online today.

9
Adding to the above, the key issue is not the start of discontinuous observation, it's whether at the time of contravention stated on the PCN you were in contravention of the cited grounds.

IMO, no.

Time of contravention: 12.08
Parking rights relied upon: max. 2 hours.
Time at which you relied upon those rights: 12.05(according to the council).
Time so parked: 3 minutes.
Time allowed: 2 hours.

The council's weird logic is that if during a period of discontinuous observation a vehicle is covered by a permit and then removed then the period parked under the free parking for 2 hours grounds commences when you first parked.

Can't see an adjudicator going for this one.

Your reps can be a condensed version of the facts i.e. you contend that your period of parking under the free for 2 hours criterion(breach of which is the cited contravention) commenced at 12.05 whereas the council claim it was 9.54.

It would be interesting to see the actual provision within the TRO.

10
Who is WBAC?

As per others, let's see the docs pl or at least a concise summary. As per Incandescent's post, in law you are only liable for contraventions occurring while you were the 'owner', so a simple timeline would help. For example:

Sold car to WBAC on *****. Vehicle registration number *****.

Dates of PCN contraventions......

And importantly: I've just updated the DVLA on the correct dates of when I sold the car,

..and they've undertaken to do what, for example to backdate your record as registered keeper to the actual date of sale? Do you have anything in writing?


11
As I understand matters, the hirer(not you) has not even at this stage made even a light-hearted attempt to get Lex to refund the £10. And we don't know the relationship between the hirer and LEX e.g. long-term lease in its early stages etc.

Did BANK even notify LEX that their PCN had been cancelled i.e. did they supply the docs mandated under Sch. 4 to relieve themselves of liability? It would seem that it's not unknown for lease companies to get this step wrong. So perhaps procedurally other than for the hirer's efforts they might still be on the hook??

Perhaps you might consider a completely different approach?

Parking Charge Notice ******

As you know, this was issued to you as registered keeper by BANK *** claiming that the driver of VRM**** had breached a parking contract at ******. This vehicle is on (long-term lease or whatever). Firstly, I must thank you for not paying the charge of £***, but instead transferring liability to me, albeit with an admin. charge of £10. Secondly, I must tell you that after writing to BANK they cancelled the charge because, as I explained to them, the parking had been paid in advance. I don't know how their automated systems made this simple error, but there we go!

So, to finally close this loop the charge was an administrative error on their part. And while on the subject of administration, while I accept that £10 won't place me in penury, it is annoying that I should be charged this when not at any fault, or you for that matter.

In summary, the charge was a mistake and has been cancelled and as a gesture of good customer relations would you also consider cancelling the £10 administration fee?

****

12
I also made a complaint and involved the registered keeper (my sister) after Brent said they could only discuss the case with her, but we still received no response.

The council are absolutely correct. In parking procedure, once a NTO is served this has nothing to do with you and you have no standing therefore under GDPR they may not discuss anything with you other than your informal reps and their response.

The registered keeper with DVLA is presumed to have received the NTO at the postal address held by DVLA 2 working days after it was posted.

We know the procedure and are trying to get the essential info from you in order for the matter to be understood. IMO, 'I have details of it' doesn't convey what we need. Pl get away from possible grounds for challenging the PCN because unless the registered keeper is within procedure that opportunity may have gone.

So, to be clear(and even these may not scope the issue fully):

is your sister by name the registered keeper?
If not, who is(you mention that the car is held under a lease). 'Who' includes corporate entities;
If a corporate body, can your sister act for them;
Or is the leaseholder e.g. VW Finance etc. the registered keeper;
By whom was the NTO received, and
Do you have the NTO?

OP, IMO these are vital procedural issues which must be scoped before a course of action could be suggested.

13
My thoughts.

Para. 26 seems definitive and restrictive:

That same principle of finality means that the Chief Adjudicator was wrong to conclude that a review on the interests of justice ground could consider the legality of an adjudicator's decision applying the principles relevant on an application for judicial review. Properly understood, paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 to the Appeal Regulations provides no such jurisdiction. Decisions of adjudicators are susceptible to judicial review. If the losing party wishes to challenge a decision on the basis it was wrong in law the correct route is by application for judicial review to this court, not an application under paragraph 12 for a review on the interests of justice ground.

OP, IMO your review was made wrongly, and now that you've posted the NOR it seems clear that you could have used this as your main point of appeal in the first instance.

Bristol have demanded payment of the daily charge from you at every stage including, but not limited to, the PCN.

The adjudicator in your case agreed that there was NO power available to the authority to demand payment of the daily charge but contended that the wording of the PCN alone was not a PI.

But IMO repeated demands for payment - incl. this classic 'If you choose to appeal to TPT the full penalty charge of £120.00 (plus the CAZ daily charge of £9.00) may apply if the adjudicator finds against you' mean that they've exceeded their lawful powers within the procedure taken as a whole.

But IMO everything in your appeal/review focused on the PCN.

Possible grounds under the Review regs, perhaps the adjudicator failed to take into account something which they should have, in this case the NOR and other correspondence.


But it's probably too late now.





14
On 6 March you posted: Yes, I am the registered keeper and my address is current with DVLA.

It now appears that a NTO has been served at a different address and its 28-day period for making reps has expired.

We need more info pl.

Do you have the NTO;
Date of issue of the NTO;
The circumstances surrounding why you did not receive it in time e.g. have you moved, if so when, as the DVLA shows last log book change 10 May, then presumably you've just updated it..etc? 

15
Where are the notices, your reps and the NOR?

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