Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - sillybilly9

Pages: [1] 2
1
Was just coming on to provide an update and to thank those that provided responses but seen I've been beaten to posting the outcome.

Felt like a pretty straightforward hearing where the adjudicator listened to our point of view, took some time to examine the photographs and quickly found in our favour.

A big genuine thank you for those who responded to my queries and to those who keep this website running. It is a fantastic resource that was extremely helpful and gave me the confidence to go through with the appeal. I hope those involved take satisfaction from the knowledge that they are really making a difference and hope that it will continue to be available for those who need it in the years to come.





2
My hearing for this case is tomorrow and I'm looking at doing some last minute research.

Is anyone able to advise how you search past tribunal cases. I'm sure I was able to do this previously by key word search but currently can't find how to do that.

Keen to re-read all cases from this particular camera as there have been many, some that have been allowed and some rejected. Also interested to search cases by adjudicator so I can get a sense of what I will be encountering. Any help appreciated.

Edit - I have found how to search by location. Now just keen to see if I can search recent decisions by my adjudicator.

3
What are the thoughts on all of the decisions going one way with the exception of one adjudicator? How scared would you be if you were to have an upcoming case with that adjudicator and are in part relying on precedent.

Is there any way to search case decisions by adjudicator?

4
A contra view!

The photo taken from the driver's seat of a vehicle approaching the junction on the wrong side of the road probably won't fool an adjudicator!

The road marking at the junction conveys a requirement which IMO in practical terms means that a vehicle approaching from the side road, as in this case, must give way to traffic in the major road being joined. There is nothing to suggest that this is a one-way street, because it isn't, therefore a cautious driver would pause at which point the twin zone signs would be evident.

I have a number of photos taken from various points on the approach to the intersection. All show the sign on the left is at a significant angle, such that it can't be seen until you are in the intersection.

The sign on the right isn't turned as much but as has been noted is blocked by the poles, and as noted in the earlier decision made by the tribunal, is at a significant height, with that height meaning I can not see it when seated in the car at the intersection.

A big question for me is what weight does the earlier decision carry. I'm assuming it's not like my very basic knowledge of common law precedent but does the case carry significant weight as the facts are the same?

Other questions - how many photos should I attach

5
You'll win this appeal at tribunals easily,  reasons: 1. the left signage is facing the building and not towards oncoming traffic.
2. No no Right Turn signage to warn drivers
3. The right signage is  obscured by poles before you turn, see pic.

Can I ask the source of this photo? Can I please use it?

6
Proposing to submit the appeal saying the following...

As outlined in the appeal to Tower Hamlets which is copied below, it is my assertion that the signage at the time of the alleged offences was insufficiently clear to warn a driver they are about to enter a restricted zone at certain times of the day.

I note since I have lodged my appeal, the signage has been turned and is now more visible as you approach the intersection. At the time, the angling and height of the signs meant a reasonable driver would not have been able to see the signs. I propose that the fact that the signs have been turned would suggest Tower Hamlets agrees.

If the decision by Miss Alderson in Case Reference 2220253407 is not followed and my appeal rejected, I refer to Case Reference 2140263304 and propose that a total penalty charge of £1,040 is exorbient and disproportionate for the mistake of not being aware that the street had timed restrictions.

Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

8
Just trying to upload the notice of rejection.

9
I tried my luck making formal representations which have been rejected.

I'm now set to make an appeal to the ETA.

Below are copies of my initial appeal, the notice of rejection and my proposed comments in the section asking for reason for appeal on the ETA form.

Please rip me to shreds and tell me the mistakes I've made or am making.




Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

10
I would welcome comments on the below response:

To whom it may concern

Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:

TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57925614
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are in place at certain times of the day.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 where Ms Alderson states:

"I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was sufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection preventing them from being visible and at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the subsequent PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

11







I also have PCN's with the following dates

Date of notice - 16/09 Date of contravention 05/09
Date of notice - 18/09 Date of contravention 10/09
Date of notice - 20/09 Date of contravention 11/09

I also look set to receive another 3 but waiting for these to be delivered.

Obviously since receiving the first notice there have been no further infringements.

In my view, as the 2nd photo on the post above shows, the only signage that is clear as you approach the road is a single blue arrow. The other signage is at an angle and/or height that does not allow you to identify it as being a pedestrian zone.

How do I go about asking for discretion?

I only see the option to make formal representations.

13
Thank you very much for these examples.

In my view, the situation is almost exactly the same as case 2220253407. Having examined the intersection further, the sign on the left hand side of the road is indeed turned to the left, making it impossible to view from a car turning from the street that I was.

Further, the sign on the right is at a height that does make it easily viewable.

Given that, I feel justified in making formal representations, quoting the case you have provided and providing photos of the signposts in question.

Is there anything I should be particularly aware of when doing so?

How do I accurately quote the case reference that you have provided? Was that for the same intersection or are the circumstances just coincidently almost identical?

Thanks again for any guidance you might be able to provide.

15
Thanks for the response Stamfordman.

Don't know how we have both missed that signage so many times. One thing is I always thought that street was a one way street, and thus thought you had no option but to turn right into the pedestrian zone but have noticed today that you can in fact turn left. I'm assuming that the blue arrows wouldn't be sufficient grounds for confusion?

Pages: [1] 2