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Messages - littlebee

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1
Hello,

Reply #45 is the Letter of Claim this BW Legal company has sent, with response to 22Nov25 when the letter was posted on the 13Nov25.

I followed up with the advise response I got here, following the thread here.

Didn't heard from them after a second reply, until now, with the latests post being their last reply.


Looking to see what I should do next :)

Thank you in advance!

Hi there,
Just having a look around the forum, how did you get on with this ?
Thanks

2
If you’re going to defend this, then see https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/pd_pre-action_conduct#6.1 and in particular
Quote
the defendant responding within a reasonable time – 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one. The reply should include confirmation as to whether the claim is accepted and, if it is not accepted, the reasons why, together with an explanation as to which facts and parts of the claim are disputed
.

No ned to go overboard, just make it clear that the claim isn’t accepted and why, and then wait for them to raise a county court claim.

Of course this whole thread is dreadfully confusing but I believe this applies to 4xPCN for non-hire cars, and your defence will be a modified version of your latest POPLA appeal without the hire car bit.

Hi there,

Can I please check and clarify that the defence is they have not identified the driver and it is their obligation to do so and present this information ?
And is it worth adding any other points including the entire payment system has changed (with no notification or signage to suggest it has done so) the barriers automatically lifting at exit suggesting no payment is required (previously the exit barriers would not lift if a payment was required), un-operational exit barriers, etc etc ?

And is it likely this will be taken all the way to county ?

Thanks

3
If you’re going to defend this, then see https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/pd_pre-action_conduct#6.1 and in particular
Quote
the defendant responding within a reasonable time – 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one. The reply should include confirmation as to whether the claim is accepted and, if it is not accepted, the reasons why, together with an explanation as to which facts and parts of the claim are disputed
.

No ned to go overboard, just make it clear that the claim isn’t accepted and why, and then wait for them to raise a county court claim.

Of course this whole thread is dreadfully confusing but I believe this applies to 4xPCN for non-hire cars.

Hi there,

yes, this is in regards to the multiple PCNs.

OK, let me review that and I'll update accordingly.

You mentioned this thread is confusing (I agree and apologies if I have not been clear or not structured it in a better way) - is there anything I should do to help make it more easier to follow ?
Thanks

4
I assume the debt collectors letter does not relate to the PCN(s) for which you are still awaiting a POPLA response?

Debt collectors can be ignored. You await a letter from solicitors in the form of a Letter of Claim.

Hello guys,

a letter of claim has been received and I enclosed attached.

What is the best way in dealing with this please ?
Thank you

https://drive.google.com/file/d/173ddISYdaT-MvUDx0-QNfUKYvZ3G07JN/view?usp=sharing

5
I would personaly stop at point 3 or perhaps point 4.

The problem is that POPLA is not a court and will quite likely pick the subset of points which it has an answer for, whereas it will also simply ignore the ones it can’t answer. I would stick to your central issue because it can’t then be ignored, and leave the other points for a real court if POPLA does not uphold your appeal.

Thanks very much for the feedback, I'll run with this.
I'll keep you guys updated.
Thanks very much for all your help.

6
Here is a draft response; what do you guys think - any changes required ?
Thanks

I respectfully submit the following comments in response to the operator's evidence.

1. The operator has failed to address the principal ground of my appeal

The central issue in this appeal is not whether payment was made, nor whether the signage was adequate. The issue is whether the operator has established liability against me as the hirer of the vehicle.

I made it clear in my appeal that I am the hirer of the vehicle, I was not the driver, and that the operator had failed to comply with the mandatory requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("PoFA") required to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the hirer.

Rather than addressing this point, the operator has devoted almost its entire evidence pack to discussing ANPR images, payment, signage and contractual terms.

Those matters do not establish liability against me.

2. There is no legal obligation to identify the driver

The operator repeatedly states that I have not identified the driver and appears to rely upon that fact as justification for pursuing me.

This is a misstatement of the legal position.

There is no legal obligation requiring a hirer or keeper to identify the driver.

Parliament enacted Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to provide operators with a statutory mechanism to recover unpaid parking charges from someone other than the driver, but only where the operator has complied strictly with every statutory requirement.

The operator cannot circumvent those statutory requirements simply because I have exercised my legal right not to identify the driver.

3. The operator has failed to establish hirer liability

This vehicle was supplied under a hire/lease arrangement.

Accordingly, the operator was required to comply with Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

The only document received by the hirer was the Parking Charge Notice / Notice to Hirer.

The mandatory accompanying documents required by Schedule 4 were not served, including the prescribed documentation necessary to transfer liability from the driver to the hirer.

The operator's evidence before POPLA does not demonstrate that these statutory requirements were ever complied with.

Instead, it merely asserts that liability transferred from xxxxx  to xxxxxx without producing evidence that the statutory conditions for such transfer were satisfied.

An assertion is not evidence.

If the operator had complied with Schedule 4, it would have been a straightforward matter to produce:

the Notice to Hirer as served;

evidence of the documents enclosed with that notice; and

evidence demonstrating compliance with the statutory requirements.


The operator has failed to do so.

The burden of proof rests with the operator. It has failed to discharge that burden.

4. The operator's evidence is largely irrelevant

The operator's evidence concentrates upon:

alleged non-payment;

ANPR records;

contractual terms;

signage; and

duration of stay.


Even if those matters were accepted (which is not admitted), they concern only the conduct of the unknown driver.

They do not establish that I, as the hirer, have any legal liability.

Accordingly, the evidence fails to address the principal issue before POPLA.

5. Inconsistent evidence regarding the operation of the site

The operator's rejection correspondence described this location as operating a "pay on entry" system.

That is factually incorrect.

The site operates as a pay-on-exit system.

This calls into question the accuracy of the operator's consideration of my appeal and the reliability of the evidence presented to POPLA.

If the operator cannot accurately describe the operation of its own parking system, its conclusions regarding the alleged contravention should be treated with caution.

6. Misleading operation of the exit barriers

Historically, the exit barriers at this location would only open once payment had been made or where no payment was required.

The barriers now open automatically regardless of whether payment has been made.

There is no clear or prominent signage informing motorists that this significant operational change has occurred.

A motorist familiar with the previous operation of the site could reasonably interpret the automatic opening of the exit barrier as confirmation that no further action is required before leaving.

If the operator has fundamentally altered the operation of the site, it is incumbent upon it to ensure that this change is communicated clearly and prominently.

The evidence supplied does not demonstrate that this has been done.

7. Signage fails to provide adequate clarity

Should POPLA conclude that hirer liability has somehow been established (which is denied), I submit in the alternative that the operator has failed to demonstrate that a clear and enforceable parking contract was formed.

The operator relies heavily upon photographs of signage.

However, the issue is not simply whether signs exist.

The question is whether the signage clearly communicates the current operation of the site to a reasonable motorist.

The operator has failed to demonstrate that motorists are clearly informed that:

the site operates on a pay-on-exit basis;

the automatic opening of the exit barriers is not confirmation that payment has been made; and

the previous operation of the barriers has changed.


In the absence of clear and prominent information, any alleged contractual terms are ambiguous and should be interpreted in favour of the consumer.

Conclusion

The operator has failed to establish liability against me as the hirer by demonstrating strict compliance with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

Instead, its evidence focuses almost entirely upon matters relating to the unidentified driver, whilst failing to address the principal legal issue raised in my appeal.

In the alternative, the operator has failed to demonstrate that the operation of the site and its signage clearly communicated the applicable parking terms to motorists, particularly following the change to the operation of the exit barriers.

For all of the above reasons, I respectfully request that POPLA allows this appeal and directs the operator to cancel the Parking Charge Notice.

7
I would just comment that they have not rebutted your appeal point relating to the non provision of the additional documents which must be served with the NtH.

Is there a template response I should include
& is there any value in commenting on other aspect of the issues (the fact they claim its pay on entry which clearly it is not) as well as poor signage >

or is the above single line sufficient ?
Thanks

Morning,
Just want to check what the best response is to send back to POPLA please ?

Do I respond to everything I disagree with or just focus on ''non provision of the additional documents which must be served with the NtH'' ?
Thanks

8
I would just comment that they have not rebutted your appeal point relating to the non provision of the additional documents which must be served with the NtH.

Is there a template response I should include
& is there any value in commenting on other aspect of the issues (the fact they claim its pay on entry which clearly it is not) as well as poor signage >

or is the above single line sufficient ?
Thanks

9
Just to confirm, did the operator send any other documents with the Notice to Hirer?

Hi, not to my knowledge and none that I have received. The only information supplied was the PCN which was shared earlier.

What are your thoughts on what they have issue to popla ? is there anything else we can do ?

Thank you for all your support so far, really appreciate you helping.

10
1. Please upload everything.
2. You need to rebut anything they claim with which you do not agree, or else it could be argued that you agree with what they say.

Hi jfollows,

please see both documents below:

1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jUqPG67RXe4tl7FyEFg84eMBcHf5Hvoz/view?usp=sharing

2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZtNCRKzNKiEyLY_dUdPX7M-9lclCuHpJ/view?usp=sharing

in addition, please see below pictures of the car park entrance and exit, in case this helps.

3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z7DcecBooJGlKmwAuM3tK6yqv-pCuxvP/view?usp=sharing

Please do let me know if you need anything else ? They have indicated response is required within 7 days.
Thank you

11
1. Please upload everything.
2. You need to rebut anything they claim with which you do not agree, or else it could be argued that you agree with what they say.


OK, I'll upload everything.
Thank you

12
hi all,

there has been a response on the POPLA portal:

1. From Portal : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y8WICL_7F-ZnwJXKkDS2m4X0RSb7eLu_/view?usp=sharing

2. Page 1  of response from PCN issuer: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s_v_0fUc1Ii7C0RqQsbtdZhyrVwETf4X/view?usp=sharing

3. they have also issued a ''pack'' which includes their supply contract, images of their facilities and copies of the PCN

I havent uploaded everything, but would you like to view the entire pack they have enclosed ?

POPLA have advised there are 7 days to respond.

Just to add, their response seems to be heavily based around the customer car park which is a different location all together (a building next door). The car park in question is part of a service road used by the business owners/drivers to deliver goods (customers can not usually access this). This car park has always been pay on exit and the exit barriers have always been closed until a exit payment was made (if it was over the hours free stay) - however in recent times, the car barriers have been non-operational, broken or open and more recently they have now begun to automatically open suggesting that no payment is required on exit. Further, on their response to the PCN appeal, they stated' ''This car park operates on a payonentry system, which requires all
motorists to pay once they have parked their vehicle to validate their stay'' - which is not correct, there are no such signs and this has never been a ''pay on entry'' site.

How best to respond please ?
Thank you

13
I assume the debt collectors letter does not relate to the PCN(s) for which you are still awaiting a POPLA response?

Debt collectors can be ignored. You await a letter from solicitors in the form of a Letter of Claim.

Hi there DWMB2,
yes you're right, the debt collectors letter does not relate to the PCN which is pending POPLA response.

So, for all the remaining PCN, the idea is to let them go through till the form of a letter of claim is issued, and then come back here to go through next steps ?

14
hi all
there was another letter from the ''debt'' agency - they have consolidated the ''debt'' and asking for it to be paid.

do we still ignore or respond ?

Please do advise...naturally for a worrier like me..Im getting really stressed...please do help.



15
Is there a particular template letter to follow when raising to POPLA ? And should a response be sent to the PCN issuer at the same time ?
If you have a POPLA code, just appeal to them, no need to contact the parking company again. I'd do a search on here, there should be some previous examples of hirers that have gone to POPLA.

Hello all,

Still waiting for a POPLA decision, its moved to stage 2 (with the operator). I guess it can take a while before they have fully reviewed and come to a decision.

With regards to the other PCNs, is it best to wait for POPLA to make a decision on the 1st one ?


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