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Messages - Incandescent

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1
No offer of discount, so it is now a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals.

2
The basis of your reps to the council and appeal at london Tribunals is that the contravention did not occur - de minimis. Venal moneygrubbing PCNs like this need to be called out.

3
Please post a GSV link to the exact location where you parked. Photos show you seem to be straddling two bays, so we need to see the bay.

4
GSV dated August 2022 shows two signs, one each end of the bay. There is no later view, unfortunately, but looking at the context of their photo of the sign they claim is approx 7.5 metres away shows it to be positioned about midway along the bay, here by the horizantal concrete beam in the wall : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BTAw2tNZTYDMx4JQ9

That beam is about 35-36 metres from the start of the bay, so they are bluffing their way with the 7.5 metres, frankly. However, whilst this is a long bay, the fact is you didn't walk down it looking for a sign, did you, so straight away you're at a disadvantage because the sign is there. YOu have a duty as a motorist parking in a marked bay to look for the sign.  If this got to London Tribunals, the council would just state that there is a sign for the bay.

It looks as if the signs in place in 2022 have gone and been replaced by a single sign. However the pole that held the previously viewable sign in GSV is still there with no sign on it.

You say the sign is not visible in any of your photos, but if you zoom the one taken along the street from where your  your car was parked, you can see the black pole and its sign by the horizantal concrete beam in the photo. Obviously the sign is seen edge on, because it faces out to the street.

Anyway, as Stamfordman says, you're at the Notice to Owner stage, so you might as well take them all the way, so they have to do some work for their money.

5
Well, first off, you are not "formally appealing", you are submitting an "informal challenge". It's important you know the difference because if your challenge is declined, like over 95% of them are, the next thing you will receive is a Notice to Owner, (assuming you are the owner), against which you can submit formal representations.
Representations against an NtO are usually looked at a lot closer, because councils just want the easy money, so you might get it cancelled at that stage, but many councils know that they can "DNC" (Do Not Contest)  an appeal at the TPT having put you through a lot of hassle. OK they lose the case, but the enormous sums of money councils earn with PCNs means they can lose a few.

Secondly, it is almost inevitable that the location isin a Special Enforcement Area, because any council that has powers to enforce parking and traffic contraventions, must have first established a Special Enforcement Area in order to do so. This takes responsibility for enforcement away from the police and hands it to the councils under the Traffic Management Act 2004, plus associated regulations. Virtually the whole of England and Wales is now under decriminalised parking and traffic enforcement.

Of the points in your draft challenge, only 3 and 5 have any value. The disused entrance does not meet the statutory requirement for enforcement, because it serves no purpose as entrance or as a road crossing, so they really should cancel this PCN solely on that basis, but they won't because they know that on receipt of a rejection, most people, as I say above, just cough-up. If you want to succeed, you have to forego the discount option, wait for the Notice to Owner, send in reps against that, get rejected again, then register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. Are you prepared to do this ?  If not, it's game over now.


6
Can you please post a GSV link telling us exactly where you parked on the GSV view the link brings up.

7
I have a long saga with a PCN after driving in a Bus Lane. Please bear with me as I upload details. This is new to me!
How long must we "bear with you" ? Better not to start a thread until you've got all your ducks in a row, surely ?

8
The CEO had a choice of penalties for where you parked, (1) parking off-carriageway, and (2) parking on a restricted street, because the DYLs apply to the whole road, mot just the carriageway. But for councils, they like choice 1 because there are no exemptions to it. We do see a lot of this sort of thing in B &D Coouncil who are duffers when it comes to signing and enforcing parking.

However, you've not posted the PCN, nor given us a GSV link so we can look for ourselves, sp please post them.

Councils can over-ride the 1970s London-specific Act that barred off-carriageway pwrking in London, but have to pass a resolution first, then sign where it is allowed.  B&D seem just to "tolerate it" it in certain places without doing any of the proper procedures.

9
You've blanked out too much on the PCN. You need only blank out Name and Address. We need PCN Number and car registration to see the video.
You might also care to read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

AFAIK, we've seen this location before, looking at your GSV link

11
So, postal PCN received but ignored, then CC arrived adding 50% onto the PCN penalty.

Frankly, there is not a great deal you can do about this. If you wait until the PCN is registered at the Traffic Enforcement Centre, adding another £10 onto the amount, you can submit a Statutory Declaration, but none of the three circumstances you can select from on the form match yours. Your only option is pay-up. Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but if a recipient of a postal PCN ignores it, then any appeal options are lost.
See here, Form PE3
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice

Edit
I suggest that you contact the council to explain the situation; they may cancel the CC as a courtesy. Your mother can then pay it, or submit representations.

12
I have just had a look at the Havering website, and on the page here : -
https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/2
There are two options, (1) If the PCN was left on the vehicle and (2) If the PCN was sent by post. Each of the two headings also say if it is for informal challenge, or formal representations.

Looks like you selected the wrong option
This is the page for your formal reps: -
https://parking.havering.gov.uk/Pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=FORMAL

14
GSV for Derby Road is only up to August 2022, but the road has a road closure notice and bollard at the exact place the existing restriction now is : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mhDx7ukESy1GtDRm6

Certainly there should be some advance warning, as the restriction is 24x7 and turning space is very restricted. A look on London Road shows there are cul-de-sac signs either side of the entry to Derby Road, plus advance warning signs on Clarendon Road in both directions : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/snJt3iFmBwGCKwDR6
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rHfCBSBMqCdCW1T17
However, the sign in the southbound direction is partly facing away from approaching traffic

So in my opinion, it does looks as if Croydon have done their duty under LATOR Regulation 18 to place adequate signage.

15
I had a look at this junction on GSV and there are no directional arrows on the last view of July 2024, so this looks like a fairly new restriction. The only thing there is the two traffic lanes on Peckham Rye here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VZts8teH9NtuxiMn7
They may have put in new signal heads that split the green phase for the two lanes.

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