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Messages - Grant Urismo

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1
I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.

I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.

I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.

Welcome aboard vipninja.

I expect you'll win this one easily if the signage is still the same, but I do know one rule you definitely have broken!

... the forum rule that says "one case, one thread" (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/house-rules/ ).

Please start a new thread for your PCN and we'll be happy to help, and I for one will be very interested to see the FOI response.
 

2
...A quick search shows the minimum required notice there is 72 hours https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-bays/parking-bay-suspensions/how-we-suspend-parking-bays/

So, if they can prove they respected that, I fear there is nothing you can do.

Not true. Councils can't just pick any arbitrary time time limit they feel like and make it stick just because it's on their website. If councils could do this, you an bet a few of them would set a 5 minute limit and cash in on every suspension!

Once an adjudicator sees this case, they will decide if the council are being reasonable or not. I think they would be highly unlikely to rule that it's reasonable to expect car drivers to return to their vehicles every 71 hours just in case the council has followed a policy almost nobody will have read, because it means nobody in the borough could safely go on a week's holiday!

3
Take a screenshot! Proof that you've been told you don't need to do anything at this stage may prove useful later.

4
I think you'll struggle with this, unless you can prove you didn't pass clean air zone traffic signs.

If you did pass clean air zone road signs, how can you justify believing whoever runs "brumbreathes.co.uk" instead of obeying actual official traffic signs?

5
I am, but I think our appeals are at different stages. I have the notice to owner, I believe he is at a level two complaint with the council.

Just to emphasise that the formal appeal process (PCN/NTO/Appeal) is a completely different thing to a complaint to a Council. Both can co-exist, be at different stages and proceed at different speeds.

You asked on the other thread what the benefit would be of getting hold of "a copy of the footway parking resolution made under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 that applies to this road", which Stamfordman recommended, so I'll attempt to explain. For a PCN to be valid, the wording of the PCN needs to follow a set of rules AND you need to have broken a rule, AND that rule needs to have been communicated to you in the language of traffic signs. A lot of cases that we see here are won on because the council messed up one of these 3 bits, so we like to check that the council have done them all correctly. The way pavement parking works is that it's generally allowed, except in London where it's banned, except for a few bits of London where it is officially unbanned by a London Council, which they do by making a formal resolution under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974. The Council then put up signs that match exactly what the resolution says, and you're then allowed to park where the signs say you can. Well, that's the theory, but in practice, we often find that the signs don't match the resolution. If you prove this to a traffic adjudicator, they will tear the ticket up for you. This happens often enough for us to recommend getting hold of the resolution and checking it pretty much every time we see one of those 'you can park on the pavement' signs being relied on by a London Council.

6
Wait to see what others say, but I'd be tempted to post them a cheque for £11 "in full and final settlement". It'll get rejected, but I think you'd be in a pretty strong position at adjudication given that the actual amount is the least readable part of the PCN.

7
I'm new to this, I have never argued a parking ticket before, so apologies if this is a stupid question, but, what is it and how will it help?

I'm happy to answer this, but before I do, please start your own forum thread, so things don't get confusing. We've lost a few cases in the past because people got mixed up about advice meant for another person on the same thread, so we like to keep things separate.

8
I'll try to explain the 'why' for you, Garak112. You've been accused of "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited"

The relevant legal definition of a "box junction" is set by the Government, not the Council. It can be found on page 168 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (available at https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsrgd/tsrgd2016.pdf) and it says:

"For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a) at a junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c) along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and
(7) A reference in this paragraph (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst
part of it is within the box junction."


The problem for the council is that the marking they have put on the road isn't at a junction. It doesn't fit into any of the legal categories of box junction, therefore it's not legally a box junction, therefore you didn't 'enter and stop in a box junction when prohibited'. What you stopped in is just some yellow paint.

This may sound a bit convoluted, but if you put that argument in front of a traffic adjudicator (as we've successfully done in the past), they will be highly likely to agree with you and cancel the PCN.

9
No, your post is still visible. I think Encedalus just posted something intended for another thread by mistake, then deleted it.

Please reinstate the PCN details at suggested by Stamfordman, and also it would help if you posted a Google Street View link to the location where you parked, so we can see the signs and lines on the road.

10
I agree with HCA. If you want to read more, here's a link to the TMA: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18 (do a ctrl-f for "dropped" to jump to section 86)

11
I don't think it would hurt to add one paragraph to cp8759's draft:

I also challenge liability on the grounds that I have not violated a valid parking order. I note that The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (off-street parking places) Amendment Order no. 202 does not include any requirement for parking sessions at this location lasting up to 2 hours that I have not met. If you do not cancel this PCN I will put you to strict proof that a parking Order was in place at the time that required the payment of a fee (or any other action on my part) for off-street parking at this time in this location.

12
IMO, as the off-street order is only amended by these revisions and not revoked and remade then you need to see the whole order to see whether there was and still is an existing provision regarding how free periods are obtained.

Agreed, this is why I wrote that it needs more looking in to, I can't however find "The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2017" online.

Having said that, the amending order does say...

"1. The items shown in Schedule 1 to this Notice shall replace those items in Schedule 1 to the Off-Street Order to:
a. remove the current 30mins free parking and change the current charges for 1 hour tariffs to ‘free’ for all
emissions for payment parking places;
b. change the payment parking places in Barking Park Western Car Park to max stay 6 hours no return within
2 hours, the current 1hr tariff shall be removed and a tariff for up to 6 hours will be added and the charges
for all tariffs will be replaced by those shown in Schedule 1 to this Notice;"
(emphasis added)

...so I think the OP is on pretty safe ground here.

13
Yes! The council can't just put up signs and issue PCNs, then need to follow the process of formally issuing an Order and then putting up signs that accurately convey the restrictions in that Order. I've had a good look round and I'm convinced that they don't have an order that gives them authority to demand you use the app. What you did (park for less than 2 hours for free) doesn't contravene the Order, so they can't fine you for it.

If this was my PCN, I'd wait for the NtO and challenge on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, because they haven't made an Order that requires you to use an app in an off-street car park. My guess is that they will drop this at the part of the process where they need to produce an evidence pack, because a) they won't be able to produce an Order you've contravined and b) they are useless at doing evidence packs in general.

14
This needs more digging into than I can do right now, but I think you might be in the clear (although you'll likely have to go all the way to the adjudicators to win).

Knowing Barking & Dagenham's slapdash approach to following the proper processes and procedures, I had a quick look at "THE LONDON BOROUGH OF BARKING AND DAGENHAM (OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES) AMENDMENT No. * ORDER 202*", which I think is the most recent off-street parking order, and it looks to me as it they have cocked up the paperwork. If I'm reading this right, the order does include a requirement to book by phone for free parking in note (1), but only for schedule 2 on-street parking, not off street parking in car parks.

Can someone else take a look at https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/ID373%20%20PBP%20%20Tariff%20amendments%20NOI.pdf and check I'm reading it right?

15
Assuming the language and tone doesn't cross the line into slander, which would be a whole other kettle of fish, I'd be inclined to start by issuing a data subject access request to find out if this is an isolated incident or not. Even if this reveals nothing, I imagine that if their parking department gets told by their compliance people to hand over copies of all internal or external correspondence that mentions you might hint to them that actions can have consequences.

You might also consider exercising your right to rectification under Articles 16 & 19 of the GDPR in respect of any inaccurate statements they have made about you. While correcting the record may be trivial in what is now a closed case, the parking department might, following a visit from compliance staff choose to moderates their behaviour in future.


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