Show Posts - poplitealartery

Quote from: H C Andersen on 20 Jun, 2025 20:46The sign refers to column 27.It's on column 23. So where the f**k is this column 27? Go to the right and you do not find any column in the parking place, you have to leave the parking place, go beyond a yellow line and then look further only to find that this is..column 21. B****r. Oh well, retrace your steps and go to the left of column 23 and the only other column in the parking place is column 25. Where and how would you find column 27? Traipse the streets? Remember, as a motorist you are safe ONLY as long as you remain in the parking place to read signs, make calls, use apps to pay etc. It's when you leave that you become vulnerable. IMO, it's preposterous to expect a motorist to leave their car in potential contravention in order to search for a clue which isn't even on the parking place.Of course we’re in agreement - but in your experience when these things go to a tribunal they’re successful?

Another image of where lampost 27 is attached also [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Quote from: H C Andersen on 19 Jun, 2025 07:45If you decide to carry on then there's nothing to do procedurally until the NTO is served and the timetable for this is in their response. I have attached the image of on street view outlining everything along with their response. Arrow being where my vehicle is parked along with the parking spaces numbered and where lampost 27 is.I would be inclined to take it to formal representation on the basis of signage being unclear as it is outside the parking area - but off the balance of probabilities - how likely would you think it would be successful - rather than pay the reduced fee now and be done with it? Just soley based off your experience.Appreciate all your help so far. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Quote from: H C Andersen on 17 Jun, 2025 19:18IMO, carry on, but this would be for the full penalty at this (NTO) stage, although they could re-offer the discount.They seem fixated by reliance upon a location(column 27) not even within the b****y parking place, let alone the suspended area. Instructions must be correct, clear and not confuse. But first of all:Are you the registered keeper? You must post the council's responses, not transpose them. See FAQs at the top of page 1 of this forum.Not sure how to proceed, any advice?

Quote from: H C Andersen on 17 Jun, 2025 19:18IMO, carry on, but this would be for the full penalty at this (NTO) stage, although they could re-offer the discount.They seem fixated by reliance upon a location(column 27) not even within the b****y parking place, let alone the suspended area. Instructions must be correct, clear and not confuse. But first of all:Are you the registered keeper? You must post the council's responses, not transpose them. See FAQs at the top of page 1 of this forum.Yes I am the registered Keeper: Ill attach a picture of the email they sent me now [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Quote from: H C Andersen on 09 Jun, 2025 17:35For informal reps(pl amend your draft) this seems fine.Got a response - they rejected the appeal Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).The PCN was issued because you parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space.Your challenge against this PCN has been rejected because the parking information signs displayed in the City ofWestminster comply with the guidelines set down by the Department for Transport.The signage states 12 share use spaces closest to lamppost 27 were suspended. The vehicle was parked in the 9thsuspended bay, whilst I appreciate this was after lamppost 25 this was still within the 12 suspended bays.Whist I appreciate you believe you had parked outside the suspended area, there are no bays to the left of lamppost 27therefore all suspended were situated to the right.The bays are clearly marked out as individual bays with the sign for all the share use bays starting at the beginning whichalso has the suspension sign attached.You must not use a suspended bay to park, wait, load or unload in whilst the suspension is in force, even if it appears thatthere is no work taking place.A suspension will generally be advertised by a single suspension sign, which is normally affixed to the information plateclosest to the starting point of the suspension. Signs advising of a temporary bay suspension are bright yellow in colourand contain details of the start and end dates of the suspension, the location of the suspended area, the reason for thesuspension, a reference number and a contact telephone number. Therefore, in the case of an extensive area beingsuspended, the suspension sign may be some distance from the farthest bay(s) affected by the suspension.It remains the motorist's responsibility to check all relevant signage of the area, to ensure their vehicle is parkedaccordingly to the regulations and restrictions before leaving unattended. Always check the signs for the bay that youintend to park in and do not park in a bay unless the sign clearly states that you can do so.I am able to offer you a further 14 days, from the date of this letter, to pay the PCN at the discounted rate. You now havetwo options.Option 1 - Payment at the Discounted RatePlease now make a payment of £80.00. This is the discounted rate and the charge will revert to its full amount of £160.00 ifwe do not receive the 50% discounted payment within the specified 14 days.Payment can be made by:- Online at http://www.westminster.gov.uk/paypcn- Visa / Delta / MasterCard / Maestro / Switch by calling Parking Services on 020 7823 4567. Lines are open 24 hours aday, 365 days a year.- Cheque or Postal Order made payable to 'City of Westminster'. This should be sent to Parking Services, PO Box 351,Sheffield, S98 1TU. Please state the PCN number on the back of the cheque/PO.- In person at any Post Office in Westminster. Details of branch locations can be found atwww.westminster.gov.uk/postoffice.Option 2 - Make a Formal RepresentationIf you do not pay within 14 days from the date of this letter, the full charge of £160.00 will fall due. If you have not paidbefore the end of this 14 day period or the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN, whichever is thelater, then we will issue a Notice to Owner (NtO) to the registered keeper of the vehicle. The NtO will allow the registeredkeeper to make full payment or a formal Representation, appealing against the issue of the PCN; the procedure for doingso will be explained on the NtO. Any new evidence can be presented with the formal Representation.Is it ever worth appealing for a further discount

Quote from: H C Andersen on 09 Jun, 2025 17:35For informal reps(pl amend your draft) this seems fine.Thanks - sent it off now - lets see what they come back withThanks for your help

Quote from: H C Andersen on 09 Jun, 2025 15:32Column 27 isn't even IN the parking place!OP, IMO your comment 'I suppose' sums it up: it's not a motorist's burden to suppose, deduce or calculate, just to read. The council's instructions fall short of the standard required IMO. Some thoughts.Dear Sir,PCN ******The above was issued for parking wholly or partly in a suspended bay. The particulars of the suspension on the sign adjacent to where I parked were:....set them out....When I read the sign I took the lamp column in situ to be no.27 and that the suspended area was to the left. I therefore parked on the right as shown in the authority's photos. Subsequently, I discovered that lamp column 27 isn't even within the parking place, it's 10m to the east. Frankly, why the council chose to define the suspended area by reference to a location outside the parking place I cannot fathom because it's not a motorist's burden to traipse along a road looking for the council's datum point. Instead, it's the council's to place sufficient, clear and understandable signs so that a motorist is in no doubt as to where they are parking and the consequences of their actions. The sign was confusing and therefore unenforceable. If the council intended that the suspended area was that part of the parking place which lies between the entrance to the Royal School of Mines and what I now understand to be column 25, then making this clear on the sign, even adding a diagram, should have been effected. The PCN should be cancelled. Thanks for clarifying - Using the City of Westminster's challenging criteria - (https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/challenge-penalty-charge-notice-pcn) I have drafted the following using yours as inspiration: I am writing to formally challenge the above PCN issued for allegedly parking in a suspended bay on Prince Consort Road.The yellow suspension sign placed adjacent to my vehicle stated:“Parking Suspended – 60 metres (12 spaces)Location: Outside Imperial College Royal School of Mines12 spaces starting from spaces closest to lamp column 27.”When I read the sign, I interpreted it as referring to the lamp column I was parked beside, which bore both the standard parking sign and the suspension notice. Based on that, I parked to the right of that column, believing I was outside the suspended zone.I have since discovered that lamp column 27 is not even within the parking area, but rather approximately 10 metres away, unlabelled and not readily visible. It was therefore not possible, at the point of parking, to know which bay the suspension was intended to begin from. The signage did not provide sufficient clarity to determine the exact location or extent of the suspended area.Instead, it is the responsibility of the council to place clear, unambiguous signage which allows any motorist — at a glance — to understand precisely which bays are suspended and which are not. In this case, the sign failed to meet that standard.If the council intended for the suspended bays to begin at a different lamp column — such as column 25 or any other — it would have been simple and appropriate to either:• Refer to a clearly labelled column within the actual parking place, or• Provide a diagram or explicit markings to show the suspended area.The lack of both on-site clarification and supporting bay markings meant that the restriction was not clearly enforceable.⸻In accordance with Westminster’s published consideration principles:• I made a genuine attempt to park legally, and any misjudgement was an honest and understandable mistake based on unclear signage.• On the balance of probabilities, the evidence shows that the sign did not provide a fair or comprehensible warning to motorists.• It would be disproportionate to uphold this PCN when the council’s own sign created the confusion.• The signage arguably falls short of the legal clarity required under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and related guidance.Given all of the above, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled.Yours faithfully,Appropriate at all? Would you know at all that if I appeal, does the 'discount' period carry forward should the appeal be denied? (Nevermind - checked and it is the case - so nothing to lose!) Best Wishes

Quote from: H C Andersen on 09 Jun, 2025 11:33IMO, the facts as far as we know and germane:The car was parked in Prince Consort Road head-on to the kerb in a parking place which extends from the entrance to the Royal School of Mines towards Exhibition Road;All 23 parking bays are head-on to the kerb;Within this parking place there are traffic signs situated on lamp columns numbered 23 (at the school entrance) and 2* situated towards the other end;Column 2* is aligned exactly with a bay marking. As far as I can see, there are 13 bays situated wholly between column 2* and the school entrance and 9 between the column and end of the parking place. As the car was parked head-on these are referred to as right and left respectively;The vehicle in question was parked near and to the right of lamp column 2*;In addition to the traffic sign, this column carried a 'Parking Suspended' sign which stated: 60 metres(12 spaces) Location: Outside Imperial College Royal School of Mines 12 spaces starting from spaces closest to lamp column 27.So, eenie, meenie miney mo! Does one start to the left, in which case the OP was not in the suspended area, or to the right?Thanks for your reply,I suppose, starting at lamp column 27 (on the edge of exhibition road) and heading toward the school , I am within the 12 spaces that are suspended... I would be in space number 10 i believe - am I following what you're saying?With the sign saying starting at Column 27 - surely there can be only 1 direction it can mean, and that is toward column 2?

attached [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Hi Thanks for your reply! Yes - I do feel silly - I have attached another photo here - if you 'look through' the car you will see two restriction signs - one above and one below - the one above is the one that is in the evidence and the one below they didnt take any photos for in the evidence. The one below (looking through the vehicle) is in my eye line as I am parking and on that sign, it has a restriction of the 11th -13th of June - and I wrongfully assumed the one above it said the same - or i somehow read them as the same (dyslexia!). I could go back and get a photo of the one below if thats of any use - but again im not sure i really have a leg to stand on. I have now attached my PCN - just not the reference - let me know if that is needed also - otherwise I have attached every photo of evidence they have [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

replying so i can add the rest of the photos [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Hello all,First time posting — and grateful in advance for any advice you might have.I received a PCN (code 21 – “Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space”) on 8 June 2025 at 15:02 while parked on Prince Consort Road, outside Imperial College.I’ve attached photos showing:   •   My car in the bay (clearly within marked bays),   •   A yellow suspension notice stating suspension from 6 June to 9 June,   •   A standard parking sign above it, stating it’s a shared-use bay (resident permit holders or pay-by-phone),   •   Another overlapping sign or poster placed oddly, partially blocking visibility,   •   No cones or bay markings indicating a suspended space.What I find confusing — and possibly grounds for appeal — is that the signage appears stacked and cluttered, with multiple signs above one another, and nothing immediately on the bay or ground that would make the restriction obvious from a typical driver’s perspective. I was inspired to make this post due to a previous post in the same location - albeit different circumstances - https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/westminster-code-21-parked-in-a-suspended-bay-prince-consort-road/In fairness, I didnt see that restriction sign for the 6-9th of June, as directly below it, which is in the line of sight of someone who is driving - is another restriction notice for the 11th-13th of june, which isnt photographed conveniently - but i could go get another photoThe presence of the pay-by-phone/permit sign still visible and active-looking added to the ambiguity. There were no unique identifiers like “bay number X suspended” or cones marking it off.Do you think this qualifies as inadequate signage or procedural impropriety? Would the confusing presentation or potential non-DfT-approved signage give me a decent chance if I escalate this?Any insights or similar case outcomes (like the one posted by alamwuhk2a — which was very encouraging) would be hugely appreciated.Not really sure i got anything here - but any help is appreciatedThanks again for the help — photos attached below! [ Guests cannot view attachments ]