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Messages - ryan93

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The PCN wording flaw is the central point in a challenge, but it may be sensible to reinforce the PCN challenge with another layer. You may wish to consider filming a reconstruction video with iphone from vehicle dashboard of your approach from college road through Dulwich Bus Gate (outside bus gate restriction hours). You would then upload it to youtube as “unlisted link access only”, keep it at zero views, then include that link in the PCN representation. Make sure it’s not a hyperlink, you want them to type it in. If the local authority reject representation, go to youtube analytics and it will show if they viewed it or not. If not you have a failure to consider under the relevant legislation as another point of appeal. I am quite familiar with this Bus Gate, so can draft a representation to detail both elements, then it’s just a case of waiting to see what the LA come back with, sometimes there are elements to challenge in their Notice of Rejection. With regards to the contemporaneous footage, perhaps file a subject access request for the ANPR footage from time period 08:20 to 08:30 on that date, cite reason for request: in case it reaches tribunal.
https://ibb.co/ZpTMvd6v

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I have drafted representations in a word document, though I presume they will be rejected, there are sometimes elements to challenge in a Notice of Rejection, so it's just a case of waiting to see what they come back with. If you PM email then I can send representation to you.

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To answer your question, sometimes the LA miscite the full PCN charge before the discount is due to expire, the last day of discount is 20 June (if I am not mistaken), so screenshot PCN portal on that date. Other errors are if the PCN portal says it may increase to a charge certificate rate on a date they are not permitted to (won a dulwich bus gate appeal on that), or if they cite a different date to when you submitted a representation/PCN challenge, however their portal seems different in recent times and these errors may not occur, so you should consider other appeal points. The most effective way to win the PCN is on administrative technicalities or if the LA mess up the enforcement process or make a procedural impropriety. However, it would be useful to know when you approached via college road, what did you make of the advance warning sign before the roundabout? Whilst merging off the roundabout what was your thought process? Were you unfamiliar with the area?

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What road did you approach the Dulwich Bus Gate from? There is another live case on the forum for Dulwich bus gate (perhaps read that in meantime for strategy). Fortunately, there is a wording defect in the PCN paperwork that can be challenged.

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Ah okay, noted re foliage, so perhaps I might leave that point. Others may write a better representation, so disregard mine if it’s of no use. On page three of the PCN, what does ground three state verbatim? Just so I know whether to use the same wording point in respect to that, as I cannot see that page in your post.

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Thought I would clarify my previous post as to how cases are winnable if you have collateral points of appeal, even when the contravention is visible or not. In your case, you may wish to challenge the PCN on multiple counts, 1) there is no contemporaneous image of the vehicle passing any sign, neither the PCN or TfL's video evidence shows any sign being passed, it has not been made out in the PCN paperwork or the supplementary evidence; 2) the wording on the paperwork for the payment period and grounds on page three can be challenged (unless they have updated it). If TfL reject the representation, then sometimes there may be a wording defect in the NOR to strengthen a case. I understand the balance of probabilities test, whether the sign was there on the date, but an ANPR camera is there for a specific purpose to make out the contravention, but in this case it did not. It shows your vehicle making a manoeuvre. If you need the wording to challenge the PCN paperwork let me know, but it's only my layman interpretation and there is no guarantee if it would be accepted.

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The PCN paperwork has same wording as TfL PCN I recently challenged. I had written in the representation there is no dispute the vehicle committed the manoeuvre (it was indisputable), but I then proceeded to enumerate all the administrative mistakes TfL made in the enforcement process of the PCN, I had even requested telephone recordings after a customer agent misinformed the appellant of the NOR process, I have still not received the recordings, but they cancelled the PCN months before tribunal. Their PCN portal did not have errors.

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In terms of the contemporaneous footage, the vehicle passing the sign seems to be clearly made out. With that said, there may well be points that can be challenged in the PCN paperwork, though I am unsure whether or not others here agree with my interpretation of the wording defects. If you want I can draft a short representation including a technical strategy that I recently learned on this forum. From my perspective, the best course of action would be a collateral challenge intermixed with other points of appeal to see if the council make an error in response, that may help build a case in the event you wished to contest it all the way. Do you have any mitigating circumstances or disability that put you at a disadvantage. Are you able to revisit location to film reconstruction footage with iphone by safely walking along the pavement showing the sign at the entrance of the road then walking a few moments to the pedestrian zone sign.

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Just replying to OP, yes valid point indeed, they have not given much consideration to signage placement, as one of the signs is not roadside compared to its respective counterpart, the sign is placed on the pavement boundary, rather than curbside. Read LT case reference: 2250620799 vs 2240515459, I suspect the signage argument was recently refused due to blue advance warning sign. Unfortunately it’s classic Lambeth, poor signage placement for restriction that’s caveated with a blue advance warning sign. Noticed a similar situation on Crescent Lane / Elm Crescent, GSV not up to date. Just wish the LA would appreciate that an advance warning sign is not there to nullify the flaws in the placement of a restriction, rather both should meet the requisite standard to give effect. Presuming it’s a ‘penalty exceeded amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’, after listing the collateral points of appeal, if there are any flaws in legal notices, PCN portal, procedural improprieties (if applicable), then one can always mention signage as supplementary point. Be interesting to hear the outcome.

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Hopefully someone will respond to your question.

If they have failed to consider your representation then that's a legal point that can be challenged in accordance with paragraph 1(7) under Schedule 1 of the relevant legislation. Now if you cited all the PCNs in that single representation, then that argument may apply to all the PCNs you cited.

If you submit a representation, make sure the PCN portal cites the correct date for submission, once I submitted a representation on Lambeth’s PCN portal, it cited the correct date, then a few days later it changed the date, it seemed to change the date when I sent a question to Lambeth Parking services. I used this error as another legal point to challenge. Also, calculate the last day for the PCN discount and take a screenshot of portal on that date, then take a screenshot the day after incase there are errors.

With regards to the LA exercising discretion, under Section 87 of the Traffic Management Act, they should give regard to the guidance from the secretary of state, this official guidance explicitly mandates that authorities must not fetter their discretion. Gov.uk states on 28 May 2026: “They should approach the exercise of discretion objectively and without regard to any financial interest in the penalty or decisions that may have been taken at an earlier stage in proceedings.”

However, I think the failure to consider argument and screenshot errors on the PCN portal (if any occur) may be a valuable strategy of appeal. I had a recent win against Lambeth, they did not contest at tribunal, just on the basis of a PCN portal screenshot error and telephone recordings where they misinformed the appellant of the enforcement process. Though I am unsure if they operate customer service by telephone or email in recent times.

@Incandescent, please correct me if I am mistaken but for moving traffic pcns would a “repeated contravention” be considered if service of the first PCN comes after the other contraventions occurred or is it strictly limited to parking pcns? In terms of a “continuous contravention” could that apply if a driver passed through multiple traffic restrictions in an area in a window of time on the same date. As I recall seeing cases like that on the previous forum (though it does not apply here).

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In the PCN image the sign does not appear to be sufficiently illuminated and visibility seems poor.

The July 2022 GSV images of advance warning signs present the driver with a conflicting situation: https://ibb.co/Kxpd160L

In terms of challenging the PCN (and the one from your corresponding post as well) both in the same area.

You could park at the nearby Aldi, then on foot walk to the restriction, before the advance warning sign and just video your approach to the advance warning on foot to provide perspective after dark. You may need to cross road to obtain the view of the restriction. You can then include this in your representation to the LA for them to consider. It's important you upload the video to youtube as unlisted link-access only at zero views, so only the LA can view the evidence, you would include a link in your representation. If they send a Notice of Rejection, you can check if the view count increased or not. If not then you have a failure to consider. There are other points you can challenge. I responded to your other post.

Perhaps read this case where the poster included a video in the first link.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/rye-lane-junction-hanover-park-290426/


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There was an interesting case on the London Tribunals register of appeals for Rye Lane junction Blenheim Grove

Search case reference: 2220643718

Decision date: 28 Nov 2022

You can read the case here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

Perhaps read the recent southwark cases on FTLA in respect to collateral arguments ie by challenging flaws in the PCN wording, PCN portal or when the LA fail to consider a representation.

GSV shows that from entry to the road the driver is presented with a one-way directional sign, then at the midway point of the road there is a straight ahead directional arrow road marking, upon passing that the road narrows considerably, the traffic seems to be funnelled towards the restriction, and it seems quite difficult to negotiate a u-turn: https://ibb.co/JRHr6Mnn, while the 619 sign seems to be poorly illuminated as per the image on PCN. I responded to your other post so check that for insights.

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You're probably right, but I just wrote NOR or NOA to explain the difference for the appellant.

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No worries, just provide an update when Southwark serve the NOR or NOA after your 24 May 2026 PCN challenge. Also monitor PCN portal for any errors in the meantime.

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