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Messages - neverpaying

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1
This case from yesterday is indicative of the mess Newham makes of these TTOs.

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Yes it seems, from reading the assessment, that the adjudicator would have accepted more than one of my points. Although, it was unexpected that she tried to read the TTO from the CEO's photographs even if it wasn't submitted under evidence. I also struggled to read it from that during the hearing.

Though I know it is not binding, it was also interesting to see that there was a valid concern in the time between the sign being erected and the penalty charge being issued.


Thank you to @tincombe and yourself for your help.

2
A very, very big mistake!

I have my hearing tomorrow, do I have to submit anything as counter or as evidence, or do I just mention it during the meeting?

Also to note that they do have the CEO's photograph of the sign with the printed out TTO. Does the defence still hold that "the TTO which is the basis for the contravention has not been supplied"?

3
?

This Order does not restrict or change parking arrangements.

'..the general effect of which will be to close the roads listed in Schedule 1 below'.

Nothing to do with parking, let alone introducing waiting restrictions.

Ha yes, I completely missed that it was different to the printed one on the sign. In their evidence pack, this is the only Order they have attached, so it seems to be a mistake on their part.

4
Pl post the TTMO and the core TMO* which are included in their evidence pack as well as the photo(s) of the signage in the pack.

*- this is important because as far as I can tell from previous posts the TTMO refers to the core Order as regards its scope and we therefore need to see how this is framed and how it deals with 'Traffic Signs'.

As regards their reference to 'semantic distinction', the law thinks otherwise:


The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/contents/made


In their 54 page PDF that they have submitted, this is the only TTMO that I can see, which is what was printed and attached to the yellow sign. It is also the only piece of evidence categorised under "Evidence Type B: Case Summary & Traffic Management Order"

Am I right in thinking that this actually is the TTMO and they have not provided the core TMO - is this something I can use against them?



5
Bump - today is the last day  :-\

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Sent off an appeal with an AI-assisted document

6
I'm searching the tribunal register of appeals for anything that I can use as ammunition. Is there an easy way to search for similar contraventions? There is a contravention field on the search query, but it seems that the values are not standardised.

https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:60::INITIALISE::::&cs=35A_wQdA9KZ0zDcZUno_tY96rvm3_dI6vCQnuJIYIxgbmeIdA-75g9TXyLVXeJC_P6p54A-Md44vDKlYmEwHr5Q

7
Thank you for the case reference, I will include this in my evidence.

Regarding the relative position of the sign, I shared a map I made earlier, sharing again now:

There was no suspended sign in front of me:


8
My tribunal appeal is next Tuesday. @H C Andersen was most helpful in collecting ideas and drafting an appeal. It seems they are no longer active on this forum.

I am happy to go on my own to this virtual meeting. I am unsure as to how I can strengthen my points, while addressing/undermining/countering their points listed above.

There was an earlier point by @stamfordman "If you parked and walked forward from the car the nearest parking sign does not appear to have had a temp sign. And in any case it seems to have been the nearest sign - numerous tribunal appeals have been won on this." - I will include this as well

9
62, Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway

PCN image 1

PCN image 2

Served 7th May, so I believe we have until end of day tomorrow before the 28 days is up

Google Maps Link: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Woodcote+Ave,+Hornchurch/@51.5521899,0.1972905,3a,75y,124.29h,71.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spRf6Ja-flwe9tpjvXhEArQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D18.103270066227992%26panoid%3DpRf6Ja-flwe9tpjvXhEArQ%26yaw%3D124.28895965127711!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x47d8bad6c9c716a9:0x624bb8b8ef432150!8m2!3d51.5519419!4d0.1957674!16s%2Fg%2F1vtqvc7l?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDUzMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Album with the 6 photos in the PCN evidence:
https://ibb.co/album/dPVsY7


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The only point we have to make is that the space to park between the lamp post and the tree is really right, such that anything other than a hatchback would not fit, and even a hatchback would struggle for some time to get it parked there.

Supposedly, it should be possible to park on the road instead of mounting the kerb, but we have seen on more than one occasion someone get a ticket for that too.

I apologise for the crummy photos of the PCN. Half the difficulty is that this is my wife's PCN and I am trying to see what's possible in contesting it.

10
Thank you for the replies. I see that I can no longer modify my original post, so I will create a new post regarding the appeal.

11
Received this email declaring that LBN will be contesting this at the tribunal:

It seems their core point is this:
Quote
The appellant’s core argument amounts to a semantic
distinction between suspension terminology and waiting restrictions. This does not
affect the legality of the restriction, nor the correctness of the contravention issued.






London Tribunals have recently informed London Borough of Newham (LBN) of your application
to appeal the decision to reject your representations relating to the above mentioned Penalty
Charge Notice(s). Following a review of your original representation(s), the Notice of Rejection
letter(s) and all of the subsequent documentation that you have provided, London Borough of
Newham wish to contest this appeal.
...

We the London Borough of Newham submit that Penalty Charge Notice (PCN)
PN23465850 was correctly issued and served. We can also confirm that the PCN
complies with The Traffic Management Act 2004.

...

The location hosted suspension stating “Tuesday 2nd September 2025 - Tuesday 2nd
September 2025 8am – 4pm Credon Road E13 (All spaces outside 67 Credon Road
to outside 77 Credon Road) for Tree works.

Authority’s position:
The contravention occurred and the PCN was correctly issued.

Temporary Traffic Order and Restriction
A Temporary Traffic Order (TTO) was in force at the location on the date of the
contravention. The purpose and effect of the order was to prohibit waiting within
the affected length of highway during the relevant period.
While the appellant refers to the use of the term “suspension” within
correspondence, the legal effect of the TTO was to remove the parking place and
impose a waiting restriction. Once a parking place is suspended or removed under
a temporary order, the area ceases to operate as a parking place for the duration of
the order and becomes subject to a waiting prohibition. Enforcement is therefore
correctly undertaken under contravention code 01.
The descriptive term “suspension” is commonly used to explain the effect of a
temporary restriction to motorists, but this does not alter the legal nature of the
restriction created by the order nor invalidate the contravention alleged.

Signage and Prescribed Hours
The TTO provides that the restriction applies when appropriate prescribed traffic
signs are placed. On the date of enforcement, temporary traffic signage was in
situ, as evidenced by the CEO photographs.
The signage clearly conveyed:
• that the previous parking provision was not available, and
• the hours during which waiting was prohibited (8am–6pm).
The authority contends that the signage was clear, visible, and adequate to inform
a reasonably diligent motorist of the restriction in force. Temporary traffic orders
commonly operate for defined periods rather than “at any time”, and the inclusion of
operational hours on the sign does not invalidate the restriction or render the signage
inappropriate.
The appellant has not demonstrated that the signage failed to comply with the Traffic
Signs Regulations or that it was misleading. The mere absence of identical wording
between the order and the sign does not negate enforceability where the restriction
is clearly conveyed.

Consideration of Representations
The authority considered the appellant’s informal and formal representations and
responded accordingly. The appellant’s core argument amounts to a semantic
distinction between suspension terminology and waiting restrictions. This does not
affect the legality of the restriction, nor the correctness of the contravention issued.
The authority was satisfied, at both stages, that:
• a valid TTO was in force,
• appropriate signage was displayed, and
• the vehicle was parked in contravention of the temporary waiting restriction.

12
There is a week left to respond to the NtO, but the point was that we missed the opportunity to make the initial discounted representation for the 14 days after the windshield ticket was received.

Is there anything we can do to get that back?

Otherwise, the plan will be to tackle the PCN as if starting from NTO stage, and I will definitely update my thread accordingly.

13
Is there a separate procedure for when a parking PCN was not received under the windshield wiper, but an NtO was received later on?

The intention is to "reset" back to informal stage to reclaim the initial discount and have the chance to make the initial representation.

I have used a TE9 form in the past, but that was for NTO not received I thought

14
I will be submitting this shortly as evidence for my appeal.

"The PCN gives a contravention of "01a Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (temporary traffic order)" which I dispute happened. In support, I refer to the authority's letters dated 1st October 2025 rejecting my informal representations, in particular the following:

Quoting verbatim from that letter 'When a parking place is suspended, the suspension remains in force whilst the suspension sign is in place. You must not use a suspended parking space to park, wait, load or unload while the suspension is in force, even if it appears there is no work being carried out. Every effort is made to bring suspensions to the attention of residents/businesses in the area by: Displaying a sign showing the proposed suspension dates in advance before the suspension occurs"

This clearly shows that the authority consider that the parking place was simply suspended, indeed this word and its derivatives occurs no less than 8 times in just these two short paragraphs. And yet despite this, the PCN refers to the breach of a 'waiting' restriction.

The issue here is therefore whether the imposition of a waiting restriction within these parking places was made lawfully, properly implemented as regards notice and conveyed adequately to motorists by traffic signs. For the reasons set out in both my informal and formal representations which should be read alongside these and for the reasons set out above I contend that the alleged contravention did not occur.

From the picture taken by the CEO, the sign states 8am-6pm; the order states that the amended restriction applies only if the appropriate prescribed traffic signs are placed, the order implies that the restriction is "at any time" (there is no reference to 8am-6pm), therefore "appropriate traffic signs" have not been placed, therefore the order has not been implemented correctly and no penalties may be demanded because the specific contravention has not occurred.

The authority has twice failed to consider this substantive point that I have raised at both stages of the informal representations and the formal representations when the NtO was served.

I thank you for your consideration."

15
I notice that on this forum there is a similar case on Tarling Road. I am trying to see if there is anything to take from that one to this one. Failing that, and without any further replies to this thread, I will likely lodge an appeal before the time runs out on Monday 12/01, using a similar approach to the rejected in/formal representations

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