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Messages - MrChips

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1
If that video is the entirety of the council footage, then it doesn't show a contravention.

2
As previous posters. If it's someone you know, simplest route may be for you to submit reps/appeal on his behalf and he pays the penalty or reimburses you if unsuccessful.

We can potentially assist with challenging if given more to go on.

3
Agree with Stamfordman.  If you look at the two cars which pass through the box before yours, at the point they completely clear the box the front is behind the white "blob" on the left of the carriageway. At the end of the video, the rear of the car in front of you is in front of the same white blob.

It's not completely scientific, but suggests on balance of probabilities your vehicle could have moved forward to completely clear the box junction by creeping forward until it was almost touching the car in front.  If that's the case, then no contravention was committed as the offence is defined as causing your vehicle to enter the box junction so that it HAS TO stop within the box junction. If the circumstances were such that you had the option to leave the box (i.e. you didn't have to stop where you did), then no contravention was committed.







4
Be aware they drive around with ANPR cameras and could still pick it up even if it's not in the vicinity of your residence.

5
Why would 'the judge' watch the video? You were given a window of opportunity to challenge the PCN and by not doing so you've already admitted defeat.

You can get it reset if you never received the original PCN but you've confirmed that you did.

If the PCN didn't inform you of the time limits then that might be something we could help you challenge?

6
Submit representations to WF as follows (do it online and take a screenshot when you do so).

EDIT - posted this before I saw your (or rather, AI's) attempt. I'd go with my version as it's more concise and also the second ground you included isn't really relevant or a valid defence and by including it gives WF a chances to focus on that in their rejection letter rather than the real issue at stake.

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I submit representations against this PCN on the grounds that there was no contravention.

Having carefully reviewed the video footage you have provided, it is clear that my vehicle never stops moving as it traverses the box junction.  It proceeds through the box junction continuously, sometimes at a very low speed, without ever coming to a complete stop. At the end of the video, the camera operator zooms out which coincides with the white car in front of mine moving off (and so there can also be no contravention from this point either as the vehicle preventing my vehicle's immediate exit from the box junction is not stationary).

As stopping is a necessary condition for a box junction offence to have been committed, as is having to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles, it follows that no contravention has occurred in this instance and the PCN must be cancelled.

7
I'm pretty sure you never stop moving until the camera zooms out - which coincides with the white VW starting to move off.

In which case no contravention as you can't commit a stopping offence without stopping.

You also did a big favour to the red Nissan behind you by continuously moving so they haven't committed a contravention either (it's only an offence so have to stop due to a stationary vehicle).

8
I can't see any issues with the video (100% contravention) or with the paperwork (albeit others may be better at spotting flaws than me).

One thing just to check - 29 March is the date the clocks changed.  Does the PCN show the correct time (rather than an hour before this happened)?

9
As a further point, the van is never completely stationary so you can't be in contravention in any case. Only stopping due to a stationary vehicle constitutes a box junction offence.

10
If you submitted representations successfully on 2 February, then they must serve their response by Sunday 29 March (i.e. that deadline hasn't expired yet).

However, most likely what has happened here is that they have sent a Notice of Rejection to you but you have not received it.  What does the PCN status history say online?

Assuming that's the case, then they are deemed to have complied with the 56 day deadline.

11
Brilliant - thanks for digging that out.

I knew I'd seen something similar before, but couldn't track it down either here or on LT.

12
I know this road well - I frequently play cricket off Chandos Avenue round the corner.

The video shows no contravention at all and seems to have been generated in error by the computer. Someone is meant to review the clips shortlisted for PCN by the computer but clearly hasn't in this case, or else was asleep while doing so.

@mrmustard may be interested as this is a Barnet case.

In terms of procedure, there won't be anywhere to confirm who was driving as the owner of the vehicle is responsible and the driver is not relevant.  But she can authorise another person to submit representations on her behalf (if she provides this authorisation in writing to the council).

This ought to be cancelled at the representations stage (and if it isn't Mr Mustard may have the ears of someone in Barnet council to see sense).

13
No luck so far - I'll keep looking (hope I didn't imagine it).

Meanwhile, this blog post by Mr Mustard offers encouragement

https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2017/10/up-junction-in-enfield.html

There is also a key case on the London Tribunals website which sets out very clearly that box junction markings which extend beyond a road junction itself are not valid to enforce, and this seems to me to be analogous to your situation.

Extract as follows:

"The problem with the special authorisation is this. Part of the box that it purportedly authorises is not within the junction of the roads. At its southern side it includes a triangle of road that is not within the junction and is therefore not 'at a junction between two or more roads'. The prohibition, however, relates only to a box junction as defined. The special authorisation therefore purports to extend the prohibition outside the junction. It does not seem to me that the power to authorise signs empowers the Secretary of State to effectively redefine the prohibition prescribed by Schedule 19.

This is not an insignificant matter. The box as purportedly authorised extends for a significant distance beyond the junction itself. This increases the distance the motorist has to traverse without stopping, and therefore makes it more difficult for them to make progress without falling foul of the box. It is also difficult to see what the point of extending the box beyond the junction is, given that the purpose of the prohibition plainly is to stop stationary vehicles blocking the junction to crossing traffic. Clearly, stopping in the area beyond the junction would not block the junction.

I accordingly find that this yellow box is not a lawful road marking. Therefore the contravention did not occur. I allow this appeal."

14
I think I've seen a previous adjudicators decision that agreed a box junction shouldn't be enforced when there is no longer a junction due to a road closure.  Will try and find it.

15
Additional info.

This page on London Tribunals suggests that liability can only be transferred to you if your hire period is less than six months.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-moving-traffic

Presumably yours is longer than this?

This isn't something I am very familiar with so you may wish to get input from someone who is.

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