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Messages - AoP

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1
Game on shortly.

Appeal allowed quoting inadequate and confusing signage

My sincere thanks go to Mr Morgan (@Hippocrates) for his unrelenting dogmatism.

2
Your argument is essentially down to inadequacy of signage.  This is subjective, so if you take them to London Tribunals, that is what an adjudicator will decide on. Yes, it is a trap with no meaningful advance signage, but the adjudicator could say that the signs were straight in front of you so why did you drive past them ?

Basically, it comes down to whether you are prepared to risk the additional £65 you would have to pay if you lost.

Thank you Incandescent for your input. Pretty much tallies with what was within the rejection letter referencing the restriction signs conforming to TSRGD 2016: yet weirdly, also enclosing a redundant picture of a sign which clearly doesn't.
It also fails to address the preceding 'School Street' sign displayed on Nutbrook Street being incorrectly sign-posted with misleading information as to the direction to the school.
 
I would be interested to know at which point in my video the signs first reveal their intention with any clarity to other observers, whilst also being curious if the absence of any advance warnings could be contestable?


Quote
...the adjudicator could say that the signs were straight in front of you so why did you drive past them ?
I'm guessing that responding with either: "I thought the school was closed because the area wasn't awash with children", or , "The sign I passed on Nutbrook Street said the school was in the other direction" won't win the day! :)

3
@prowla
Maybe it would also be prudent to call them and request the DVD and obtain a reference number

4
Letter of rejection has arrived:

Page1 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hcgoRuvkb2V5JgWZI5eOPpH-AYmnAPvE/view?usp=sharing
Page2 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/15i_vntvof2Ao5VI4fS37o_l5m8-4zsH2/view?usp=sharing

Oddly, they have elected to include a blurred picture of a sign which I take to be their representation of an advanced warning sign, that I presume to be, on the North entrance to Adys Road (dated circa August '23).
Unknown signage - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WWzDJIbGsdF-9Y2sdEASwFMUsQE2O6y2/view?usp=sharing
Which I believe was superseded by this sign at the same location - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yRfTVTG0GI6s6-ihTAN1gfipVyTV3cEg/view?usp=sharing

I have also uploaded a video of the route taken, albeit a few weeks later (Time-Stamp incorrect as card was corrupted, hence belated video).
Video 31/10/24 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TOvp44TYJJkelmmGYbf4ZyAn-qlGm4zd/view?usp=sharing

Would appreciate any views on whether there is any viability in continuing to contest due to the; 'Absence of any advance warning' leading the motorist into a cul-de-sac: 'Restriction sign(s) 'as not being adequately visible' or 'No means of escape' once confronted by the restriction.



5
I did consider adding a 'TMO' not set correctly aspect but trying not to dilute into too many 'throw it at the wall and see what sticks" arguments - Plus the TMO has my brain spinning!
Considered an argument re (PW) Permits holders: Parked within restriction outside of operational hours, yet allowed to drive out without contravention exists, yet no signs showing exit boundary are present.   
'The gazette' misquotes the TMO with a minor point allowing 'carers'..

As a respond is required soon:
Quote
Dear Peeps

For reasons I address below; I cannot accept liability for the Penalty Charge Notice because:

The contravention did not occur.

It is accepted that I have entered a restricted area of carriageway on Adys Road~junction Amott Road, after turning South from Nutbrook Street.

Upon revisiting the location and viewing camera footage, it is clear that the signs conveying the restriction are not readily visible to any motorists traveling South on Adys Road, at any reasonable distance, and with clarity of meaning.
The left sign is obscured by trees foliage and a telegraph pole approaching the restriction and would only become clear & legible once arriving shortly in advance of such sign. My camera footage demonstrates the signs do not allow a clear vision of sight from inside a car, or to be seen at all in a conveniently timely manner. In my view, the driver would not have sufficient time to see and react safely to the restriction before passing the sign, by which time it is too late, and that would be if the sign would have been noticed in the first instance.

The absence of any advance warning signs on approaching this time restricted road ensures the motorist will be unaware that they are entering, when in operation, a dead-end road with no easy means of escape.
The restriction is operational during the school term (08:30-09:15 & 03:45-04:15), the dates of which are determined by the staff of the school. As the motorist is unaware of these dates it may be assumed that the sign conveys a full time restriction, which is disingenuous and factually incorrect.
 
The Southwark CCTV footage is helpful inasmuch that it shows my vehicle on the approach on Adys Road and clearly demonstrates the impossibility faced by the motorist when confronted with the restriction.
There exists an inadequate amount of carriageway available in which the motorist could attempt to turn their vehicle to facilitate abeyance.

Without any advanced warning, or indeed an escape route available to the motorist once beyond the junction of Adys Road & Nutbrook Street, I struggle to understand what options were conceived accessible to; or appropriate of, the motorist once confronted by the sign(s).

*) Resident parking permit bays extend the entire length, from the junction of Nutbrook Street, without interruption along both kerb sides of Adys Road, to the dropped kerb followed by entry to the restricted area. CPZ Permit area (PW) operates Mon-Fri, 9am-11am.

*) Any motor-vehicle deemed of a size that could wait on the carriageway other than in a permit bay; yet before the sign, would also be liable to further contravention due to the presence of both ‘dropped kerb(s)’, and Double Yellow Lines.

*) Retracing the drivers direction of travel to negate any contravention would therefore necessitate reversing North along Adys Road to beyond the junction of Nutbrook Street; A distance of approx 65m, in such a manner not to cause obstruction to other road uses: mindful to the width of road, which can only accommodate the passage of vehicles, in one direction, at one time.



I do not accept the assertion whereby an enforcement authority would willfully place any motorist in possible infringement of The Road Vehicle (con & use) Regulations 1986, as the default behaviour -

[106. No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road. ]

Although I do accept that the following is not mandatory, I point out that based on the Traffic Signs Manual, the signs are recommended to be visible from 60 meters and should face the direction of traffic. By placing the sign behind obstruction, the sign would inevitably fail to be visible from 60 meters.
The photo and video evidence clearly demonstrate this in terms of anticipated visibility being foreshortened.

Whilst it is incumbent upon a motorist to consult sign(s) and comply with advertised restrictions, it is incumbent upon an enforcement authority to ensure the sign(s) implementing the terms of a Traffic Management Order is adequate to communicate the nature of the restriction to motorists, and adapting the signs to the environment where it is going to be in force, and I do not believe that has been demonstrated here.

The aim of the School Streets Programme is a worthy concept: yet poorly enacted, dilutes the intended concept of road safety and air quality zones: As demonstrated when motorists consequently become entrapped within Ady’s Road due to the absence of any prior warnings adequately highlighting the restriction.
 
The enforcement authority seem to be mindful of the need to forewarn motorists by way of the **** of “blue rectangular signs with the legend ‘School street [option]’” on all approaches. The signs do not conform to any proscribed within the signs manual and convey no meaningful information: Indeed the sigh erected in advance of Nutbrook Street junction with Adys road shows the arrow pointing North, whereas the School is located to the South!

In conclusion you should cancel the PCN before I put on my angry pants!

6
Quote

24 October 2024 Cancelled
The Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.

24 October 2024 Appeal Non Contested
TfL are not contesting an appeal submitted for this PCN.

I had planned mince & onion for tea, but now it's going to be steak & a few bubbles  :D

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@Incandescent
I couldn't agree more; It has been poorly instigated and easily remedied: Can't fathom a honorable reason against that...!

Quote
online status page states amount will increase to £130 on 5/11/24 - pay £65 now
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A7I3idssMXMkJzO68RbvqKjrVX4M1_rG/view?usp=sharing

Can anyone clarify what dates I should be mindful of?
Date of contravention 4/10/24; Date of PCN 11/10/24.
"28 days beginning with date of the notice" Leads me to believe 28 days from 11/10 is the 8/11: Is that correct, or is 'served' still a thing working off the 4/10?

Telephoned to request an appointment to view the video at the stipulated venue as per instructions, and slightly mockingly I might add, told to search Google and use the links therein to have access to all Pictures/Video held... :)
[Video has too many young persons that I can not obscure, so will not be made public].
Photo as first captured and available 'turnpoint'...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpPzwr1JRYHTn1dqIYoMvsjuXmt0upJ-/view?usp=sharing

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@katejay, If it helps; I used this number for Southwark Parking recently, which was answered in reasonable time: 0344 800 2736

9
Captured driving through a 'Term Timed School road close' thing that I had no idea existed until now :D

PCN -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P94cs7ey2llbpjfcSyI6SI9nHsqDb5KP/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jKKIbeQo0j0rLWF0on65PKpvY7EDoyYO/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sQ8GxwDUmjmtIwTW_RtD05uTg3g0jGv7/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_AFUYe-Lx-zpo6kwW7NTXc3KtE0-QDwp/view?usp=sharing

This is the only appreciable sign I passed before turning left from Nutbrook Street going South onto Adys Road (The arrow is pointing North, whereas the school is located to the South of this junction).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zIdCsoUuVcZkH4VAOl9PZwPoTAHHTIFN/view?usp=sharing
Unsure what direction this sign is supposed to convey to drivers: to turn right , or presence to a School Street being in the direction of the arrow (Had a quick look at the signs manual but cannot find a reference to it)?

Ergo: If a driver enters Adys Road, as I did via Nutbrook Street, or enters Adys Road at the North end, they will only become aware of the road closure when presented with the 'No Vehicles' sign(s) at the Adys Road junction with Amott Road; at which point no escape route exists - So what are their options?

Location -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bXpkDtueGuZYKG4s7

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@cp8759

Rejection email arrived yesterday. Apparently TFL maintain that I entered the box with no clear exit available. 'Right turn' not considered even though road markings suggest otherwise (albeit without the legend "Turn Right") so perhaps not conclusive.

Rejection received:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1elly2Ji-f47HsHlb8wuVxKQrjGArYGKX/view?usp=sharing

Historic appeals focusing on 'space outside box', 'exit clear on entry' before a tribunal hearing would be most welcomed!

11
Familiar story – You wait ages for one DVD and two arrive in sucession. Another DVD arrived from TFL yesterday!

You had room as PMB has stated.

I did make reference to that point within the challenge I submitted today.

Quote
Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability for PCN GX17671732 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.

This is because whilst my vehicle was indeed observed stopping within the hatched markings it was not due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Both TFL’s and my own dash-cam video show that upon entering the Yellow Box Junction whilst traversing a right hand manoeuvre there were no stationary vehicles impeding my intended route through the hatched markings and that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box.

My video footage may be viewed here: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ln_5TxyNDQup3utoyEcus3GgASOluTli/view?usp=sharing]

Consulting the supporting documentation received from TFL guides me to:
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

* How to use a yellow box junction
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

Given the above; I remain extremely perplexed as of the alleged contravention I have been deemed to have transgressed.

I hereby request in recognition of the above statement of events that the PCN should be cancelled.

Yours respectfully,

I included the 'right hand turn' waffle for my own clarity tbh. I use this junction frequently and would hope any rejection references that point.

12
In lieu of further input and as times running I thought I send this!
 
Quote

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability for PCN GX17671732 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.

This is because whilst my vehicle was indeed observed stopping within the hatched markings it was not due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Both TFL’s and my own dash-cam video show that upon entering the Yellow Box Junction whilst traversing a right hand manoeuvre there were no stationary vehicles impeding my intended route through the hatched markings and that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box. The stop was only necessitated by an encroaching vehicle also wishing to turn right ahead of me.

My video footage may be viewed here: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ln_5TxyNDQup3utoyEcus3GgASOluTli/view?usp=sharing]

Simply by consulting the supporting documentation received from TFL guides me to:
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

* How to use a yellow box junction
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.


Given the above; I remain extremely perplexed as of the alleged contravention I have deemed to have transgressed.

I hereby request in recognition of the statement of events that the PCN should therefore be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

tally ho...

13
TFL video has arrived.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TJQftsrzid3mUEoPeu6RS46qMybvzYya/view?usp=sharing

Is it good practice to maintain a simple approach at this stage by only affirming my abeyance to the correct use of the YBJ whilst turning right (Exit was clear upon entry; Stop observed within YBJ was not due to stationary vehicles), or should I expand on the 'stop' by explanation of the encroaching lane-hopper?
Would including a link to my Dash-cam footage be of any relevance at this stage?
Is there any merit in mentioning the PCN time-stamp as being 10:45; whereas my entry into the YBJ is approximate to 10:44:47 - Are 'seconds' pertinent and worth consideration?

Thank you in advance of your thoughts.


14
Didn't feel like the correct thing to be doing sending any reps until I'd viewed the video so I made another request on Sep 5th. The TFL status history was once again revised on Sep 11th without any intervention on my part.
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZwrAjnu-9txDOBmrTXIZs0hNKknVoaUN/view?usp=sharing

I did begin to wonder if the original 'SUS20 - Enquiry Received' request didn't generate the video processing? The code now shows as; 'SUS54 DTES Footage Request'.

Quote
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 31, 2024, 09:36:18 am
     Did you receive confirmation of your request?
Quote
The request was made by phone. I do have a screen-shot of the TFL status page which records on the 19th August - "On Hold: SUS20 Enquiry Received"

Sorry, I was incorrect: I was given a reference number on both occasions (It was lost in the muddle I call a note-book!).

15
Video has yet to arrive so I thought I'd pre-prepare a draft. Thinking of keeping it simple but open to suggestions of course.

Quote
Dear Transport for London,

In absence of the video recording requested from TFL on the 19th August, whilst also being mindful of the time period imposed for representation; my submission is therefore constrained solely on the still images TFL captured from their video recording in conjunction with my own vehicles on-board footage.

The TFL documentation I received guides me to consult:
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

* How to use a yellow box junction
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.


I challenge liability for PCN GX17671732 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.
This is because whilst my vehicle did stop within the yellow box markings that the stop was not due to the presence of stationary vehicles (?impeding my exit?).
The still images that TFL have published clearly show that there is ample space ahead of my vehicle outside of the box.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

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