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Messages - Mamite001

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 18, 2024, 10:53:17 am »
Your help may be better directed to tanster here, as he has chosen to go to tribunal on 4th Nov with 3 PCNs identical to mine.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 18, 2024, 01:16:11 am »
Update: I've paid both PCNs and will not be going to tribunal.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 16, 2024, 12:17:53 pm »
Here is the first NOR with my comments: page 1, page 2, page 3.

And the second NOR: page 1, page 2, page 3.

Only the warning sign is partially obscured !

It's important to understand the layout and the signs involved - please see my detailed explanation in my last post.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 12, 2024, 06:46:46 pm »
Hello all. There were no replies to my post about Barnet's rejection so I'm writing again with more details.

To summarise: I actually received 2 PCNs for 2 separate but identical contraventions - turning right from Nether Street to Moss Hall Grove and entering a Pedestrian Zone (link to map). The warning sign located ~70m before the turn was partially obscured by vegetation. The advice on the forum was to challenge, so I submitted 2 identical representations, linking to 2 separate but identical youtube videos (so that views could be monitored for each representation).

In the representations (link here) I wrote that while driving north on Nether Street, the driver clearly saw the 1st warning sign (link to photo), which warns about the 1st right-turn to Essex Park (link to map), but he didn't see the 2nd warning sign (link to photo) which warns about the next right-turn to Moss Hall Grove because is was obscured. By the time the driver turned right into Moss Hall Grove and saw the signs at the entrance of the pedestrian zone it was too late (link to photo). I then quoted LATOR, and asked for the PCN to be cancelled.

Barnet rejected both representations (link to rejection letter, please download to read clearly). They chose (presumably on purpose) not to address the issue of the obscured warning sign at all. Instead, they wrongly stated that I had claimed that the sign on the right at the entrance to Moss Hall Grove was obscured, and stated that as these signs are not obscured therefore the contraventions did occur. Quote:

1st rejection: 'In your response, you stated that, the signage on the right hand side of the road is obscured...'
2nd rejection: 'There are clear and compliant signs on display at the entrance to the road...'

Barnet also said that they considered the evidence, but the youtube videos have 0 views. Quote:

1st rejection: 'After careful consideration of the evidence put before us...'
2nd rejection: 'We have carefully considered your comments and (where apropriate) the evidence you have supplied...'

I now face the decision whether to go to tribunal. The case, as far as I can figure, is not clear-cut of inadequate signage and the decision could go wither way.

Your advice on how to proceed is greatly appreciated. Many thanks. RN

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 10, 2024, 11:28:17 am »
Good morning tanster - my deadline to appeal is 1 October and I am still undecided. I've messaged you directly to ask for more details of your rejections (but if you're happy to share then please post publically on this thread). Thanks a lot. RN

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: September 06, 2024, 12:43:10 am »
Good morning all. Today (5 Sep) my representation (send 15 Aug) has been rejected. Please could you advise if I should go to tribunal?
Many thanks in advance. RN

Notes:
1) The letter says: 'We have carefully considered your comments and (where appropriate) the evidence you have supplied', but there are 0 views for the youtube video I uploaded as supporting evidence.

2) The letter says: 'We are satisfied that the signs at this location conforms ... and clearly warn motorists of the restriction', but the sign is still obscured today, so it's unlikely that Barnet visited the location to investigate. I can only speculate that when Barnet says 'We are satisfied that the signs... clearly warn', it refers to the signs that appear in Barnet's photo/video evidence (on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove), rather than the obscured warning signs that I refer to in my representation (located ~70m before the right turn into Moss Hall Grove).

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 14, 2024, 11:47:01 am »
Hi all. Please could you comment on the following legal point, which I thoroughly researched about the specific School Streets Scheme related to my case. In short: Barnet extended the originally proposed scheme without further consultation as mandated by LATOR.

Specifically, please comment if you challenged a PCN because of lack of due consultation for a modified scheme.

Many thanks for all your help.

The law as I understand it (please correct me if I'm getting this wrong):
1) LATOR PART 2 clause 15 ('Modifications') states that '(3) Before an order is made with modifications ... the order
making authority must take the steps...'. These steps are listed in clause 15(4) and amount to a new round of consultation:
    '(a) informing persons likely to be affected by the modifications;
    (b) giving those persons an opportunity of making representations; and
    (c) ensuring that any such representations are duly considered by the authority...'
2) "modifications" is defined in LATOR 15(5)(b)(i) referring back to The 1984 Act, Schedule 9 par. 23(2), which states:
    “modifications” shall be construed as including additions, exceptions or other modifications of any description.

I believe the above mandates the LA to conduct another round of consultation if it wishes to modify a proposed scheme.

For the specific scheme in my case:
3) The original consultation only included Essex Park (see the map link at the bottom-right of the page).
4) Following the consultation Barnet decided to extend the scheme to include Moss Hall Grove (see section 'We did' at the very bottom of the page): 'We have considered the feedback and will be proceeding with the School Street scheme on Essex Park and will be extending the scheme to include Moss Hall Grove.'

So the scheme was modified but (as far as I can track), without another round of consultation.

Therefore, I'm proposing adding the following to my challenge:

You have failed to carry out your responsibilities under LATOR to conduct further consultation when modifying and extending the originally proposed scheme to include Moss Hall Grove.

Once again, many thanks for commenting and for all your help. RN

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 10, 2024, 02:51:20 pm »
A question regarding making the initial representation:

As a general rule, when making the initial representation (within 14 days of the notice), is it advisable to make all possible legal arguments and included all pieces of supporting evidence (i.e. my own videos, photos and possibly previous relevant appeal judgements), or is it better to just write the main legal argument, leaving videos/photos to the appeal hearing (if and when it comes)?

Or does it not matter either way?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 09, 2024, 01:58:11 pm »
Hippocrates the plate on the left (as well as on the right) has been intentionally covered by the council sometime after the end of the school term (25 July).

But note that the warning sign has not been covered. Is that something I should mention in the representation to make the point further that the council is not performing its duties and thus confusing motorists?

BTW if dropbox doesn't work then try these google drive links:
Road layout (Google maps).
My streetview showing obscured warning sign (taken yesterday)
Photo from Barnet evidence showing the 2 actual signs on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 09, 2024, 12:34:10 pm »
Thank you John U.K. for the link to the appeal.

Here's a dash cam video of the right-turn (taken this morning). The warning sign in question is just visible @ 13 seconds.

I will write to the council within 14 days of the notice to:
1) contest the PCN based on signage obscured and ambiguous.
2) include a new link to the above video (with 0 views).

Should I include a link to appeal 2240301003, which seems very similar to my case?

Any comments on what else I should include would be most welcome. Thanks again for all your help. RN

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 08, 2024, 11:37:51 pm »
Incandescent I had no luck searching for case 2240301003 on this page?

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 08, 2024, 07:48:49 pm »
Incandescent you are right that the actual sign on the right side on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove might be obscured, but for a driver taking the right turn from Nether St, it's the sign on the left side that matters, and that sign is not obscured. 

If I'm getting this wrong then happy to be corrected.

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Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) / Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right turn into Moss Hall Grove
« on: August 08, 2024, 05:20:57 pm »
Hello everyone and thanks so much for helping -

I was caught on CCTV turning right from Nether St to Moss Hall Grove (into school zone).

There is a warning sign on Nether St (ahead of the right turn).
And there are the 2 actual signs on both sides of the mouth of Moss Hall Grove.

I identified 2 issues with the warning sign on Nether Street. 
1) The sign is obscured by vegetation.
    But note that the actual signs on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove are not obscured.
2) The sign is ambiguous, reading 8.15-9.15 but omitting "am").
    But note that the actual signs do read "8.15-9.15 am".

My questions:
1) Are the above issues with the warning sign significant given that the actual signs are free of these issues?
2) Are the issues significant enough to challenge the PCN?

Links to images:
Road layout (Google maps).
Streetview from Nether St just coming to the warning sign
My streetview showing obscured warning sign (taken yesterday)
Photo from Barnet evidence showing the 2 actual signs on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove
Barnet School Streets signage guidlines
The relevant traffic order is here and here.
The PCN

Thanks in advance for all your help.
RN

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