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Messages - JD1905

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1
I have a final update from my employer regarding this. I was deducted £75 for a £60 fine from my pay last week.


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Hi

As promised I have raised the issue with NI Fines with *the leasing company* and asked them to review the process for these fines.  I’ve had a call with the *the leasing company* team to discuss their findings and they have confirmed that the process has changed in NI and that they agree that once a fine has been paid there is no recourse to appeal.

Our legal contract with *the leasing company* around the management of fines is pretty simple, they must pay the fine immediately to avoid the amount increasing so adopting a different process for fines incurred in NI isn’t going to be an option at this time.

What they have agreed to do is to review any appeal they receive from a driver and if there are grounds for the fine being disputed, they will not process any deduction from a drivers pay.  If the driver still disputes the fine, but the case isn’t straight forward, *the leasing company* will escalate to *your employer* for the case to be considered and a decision made about whether the deduction should be taken from the drivers pay.

Our company car policy is very clear that colleagues will be responsible for any parking or driving related fine, so I don’t believe that any deduction from your pay will be unlawful .

I appreciate that you were hoping for a change in the process for NI fines, but at this time, the current process will remain the same.

Many thanks for your patience whilst I’ve looked into this matter.


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So - the leasing have agreed that once the fine is paid that there is no way to make an appeal, however you can appeal directly to the leasing company and they will decide if there is grounds for it to be disputed.

I'll be quite honest, that I don't plan to stay with this employer longer than the end of the year - Is it worth me getting a solicitor for the sake of what will be £200 or so, when I plan to leave the job anyway, maybe not? I'll have a think about what I do next, the process is clearly completely flawed, but with it being such a money maker for the leasing company they are unwilling to change the process.

2
I'm sorry but it has now become even more confusing because you say your HR dept have told you "There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"

I was under the impression that your company is the lessee/hirer of the vehicle and it will be they who have the contract with the lease company. What you have shown suggests that you have some sort of contract with the lease company, not your employer. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

The leasing company's "fines team" have evidenced their intellectual malnourishment in that response. You should feel at liberty to point out the following to them, in no uncertain terms:

As this was not a "fine" from an authority but an invoice from an unregulated private parking company and the liability for the invoice simply could have been transferred to the lessee/hirer as per the information in the NtK, the response from them is evidence that they are either stupid or too inexperienced to be dealing with these matters. A simple transfer of liability as advised in the NtK would have absolved them from any further liability or charges.

The PPC have no involvement in this. They have been paid and couldn't give a rats @rse about the plight of the OP. This is a contractual matter between the OP, their employer and the lease company. It would appear that the lease company acted recklessly by simply paying the charge, whether the contract with the lessee allowed them to do so or not. The lease company have a "Fines team" that are obviously stupid or simply plain ignorant about PCNs.

If the OP is a member of a union or professional association they should seek advice from them and also, if they have legal advice cover with one of their insurance policies, the should avail themselves of that. It should be legal advice from someone with experience of employment and contact law.

Thank you for the response once again. No, I have never taken out a contract with the leasing company.

We used another company when I got the car (never signed an agreement with them either) and my employer recently changed leasing company and moved all of the contracts over, a month in - they implemented this new fines process.

I'm not a member of any unions unfortunately, so it'll be on me to pick up any legal costs on this one. Feel like i've hit the end of the road and no other option.

I guess others would probably let this drop, but absolutely nothing stopping this from happening to me again (and others). Like I said, this is a huge company with one of the largest fleet of vehicles in the U.K. So it will be an absolute money spinner.

3
Having spoken with HR they informed me


'I would advise going back to *the leasing company* to check exactly what evidence they are lookking for. It is standard practice to pay fines, but there is still an appeal process through *the leasing company*. '


'*The employer* are processing instructions from *The Leasing company* in these cases and it would be for *the leasing company* to change the process if it is not applicable in Northern Ireland'

Final word from my HR team.

"There's nothing more we can do. This is part of the contract that you have taken out with 'The leasing company' and you need to take this up with 'The leading Company' as there is nothing we can do because this process is not managed by 'Your employer"


4
Having spoken with HR they informed me


'I would advise going back to *the leasing company* to check exactly what evidence they are lookking for. It is standard practice to pay fines, but there is still an appeal process through *the leasing company*. '


'*The employer* are processing instructions from *The Leasing company* in these cases and it would be for *the leasing company* to change the process if it is not applicable in Northern Ireland'

5
Got what is likely to be the final update from the leasing company.

'Our Fines team have advised us that , *the leasing company*, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, will continue to incur charges if the parking fine or parking charges (or any similar contraventions) are not paid. If left unpaid, *the leasing company* may be subject to further fees and other costs incurred for bailiffs or any other legal costs which *the leasing company* will have to re-charge to the driver’s employer. The agreement we have in place with the driver’s employer obligates the employer to be responsible for any fines, penalties, or parking fines/charges (or similar contraventions). This is the arrangement *the leasing company* has with the driver’s employer, the driver is welcome to engage directly with their employer in relation to this arrangement.

*the leasing company* can appeal the fine if the driver supplies Arval with the relevant evidence to challenge the contravention.

If you have any evidence on which we can appeal this charge, please let us know and we can appeal.


I think it's fair enough - this is an issue with my employer now and i'll raise it with HR to discuss with them.



6
There was no clear signage to indicate that the car was parked contrary to any restrictions and the car was being used in line with my company car policy / agreement.

I'll await a response from my employer, but I think you only option that I have really is to get legal advice on this. I thank you for your responses and will come back and update once it is concluded.

7
Thank you for the further responses - the fine is for £100. My employer has over 100,000 employees and therefore i've not problem with pushing back and trying to get this resolved (in the right and most professional way of course.

I'm awaiting the leasing company to respond to me requesting that it be appealed as per the policy and will continue to follow the process. I'll also check my employment contract. Once this is done i'd be happy enough to raise a formal grievance through our HR process.

Update - this is in my employment contract regarding deductions.

"7.4. You agree that we may deduct from your salary, or any other sums owed to you, any
money owed to us or to any Group Company, by you including, but not limited to:
7.4.1. any overpayment of salary or accrued holiday pay, training course fees,
outstanding loans.
7.4.2. Anything we may have paid you from a bonus incentive or commission
scheme, if the scheme allows it."

8
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car. These must
be paid promptly and if you don’t, or if the fine/charge is sent directly to 'The leasing company' as the registered
owner of the car, 'The leasing company' will pay on your behalf, and this will be deducted from your salary together
with an additional £12.50 plus VAT administration fee. Failure to pay any outstanding fines and
surcharges may result in disciplinary action being taken.
If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible


Would the sensible move here to be request the leasing company to provide evidence that I was the driver of the vehicle are per Northern Ireland law?

Grounds for appeal
Unlike England and Wales, the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) does not apply in
Northern Ireland. This means that the driver, rather than the registered keeper of
the vehicle, is liable for any private parking charges issued. The onus is on the
parking operator to issue the PCN letter to the driver of the vehicle. As the registered
keeper of the vehicle, you can appeal the PCN by asking the parking operator to
provide evidence that you were driving on the date of the alleged breach, if no
evidence exists, the PCN can be cancelled.
Also, if you feel there are extenuating circumstances involved in your case or that
the PCN has been issued incorrectly, you can appeal the PCN. Valid grounds for
appeals include signage being inadequate on site, errors with ANPR cameras, getting
a PCN for parking in a disabled bay despite having a valid blue badge or if you are an
employee within the grounds of the car park.

9
Thank you all for your responses - I have received a response from the leasing company below

"I do apologise for the delay in responding.
 
When 'The leasing company' took over the 'employ' contract from 'previous leasing company', communications around fines and the new process were communicated to the driver population.
 
The contract is between 'the leadsing company' and 'your employer' therefore drivers would not sign any type of contract. The policy is ‘pay and rebill’ to 'your employer' and this is to avoid fine costs escalating. If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."
 


I think this answers a few of the questions that have been mentioned. I do want to fight this, because the fine should not have been issued. I will try and dig out an extract from our company car policy on fines in the meantime.

10
This is a private fine - apologies if posted in the wrong forum. Attached fine.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

11
I'm sure this has come up plenty of times, and I did have a search of the forums to try and find some examples - but unfortunately drew a blank.

I have received a copy of a privately issued PCN from the leasing firm that my company use. Ticket was issued 4th May for £100. The recently implemented process, is that the leading company will pay any fine that is issued + a £12.50 Administration Fee. Unfortunately, by them doing so - there is then no right to appeal.

My initial lease was with a different company, they transferred the lease over to this new company recently and last month implemented the new policy that they will pay fines on your behalf and apply an Admin fee. This is taken out of my salary.

Now, two problems I have with this. Firstly, I feel that there should be a right to appeal. By the leasing company paying any fines, it denies this right.

Secondly, I never signed any agreement with the leasing company that allowed them to make payments for fines and deduct them from my salary - there is also nothing in my contract of employment which states this. The agreement I signed was with the previous leasing company, of which no such terms existed.

I've wrote to both parties to explain the above, but i'm unsure where I stand legally. I'm usually really on the ball when it comes to anything legal, and more often than not I find that the law protects you from being screwed over - but i'm not sure about it this time!

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