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Messages - Incandescent

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1
Don't just cough-up, but submit representations that you are abroad, and when you departed, the permit was clearly visible on the car. State that you returned to the UK after the discount period had expired and request they re-offer the discount. Also state that you accept the permit is not showing in the CEO photos, so can only surmise that it had fallen down whilst you were away. Ask for discretion as a long-term permit holder.

2
Now I've seen the back of the ECN, it reminded me I'd seen one of these before where they refer to the service of a Notice to Owner, which is not part of the Royal Park regulations and is therefore complete tosh; in fact most of the back of the ECN quotes stuff as if it were under the Traffic Management Act 2004, thus showing the complete ignorance of NSL of the regulations. Under the regulations, the driver has responsibiity not, (like the civil PCN regime) the owner.

A complete dog's Breakfast !


3
I’ve contacted Toyota’s homologation department to request a certificate of conformity. Fingers crossed that gets me what I need to convince them. It does have a wait time of 10-15 days though..

I guess I wait for that to come through before submitting any appeals?
No, you mustn't miss any deadline on the PCN or it's game over. Best to submit something and say that you will be sending the homologation certificate of conformity for your car, but it takes 10-15 days, so request the PCN is put on hold until you submit copies.

4
As I understand it, ECNs like this come under the criminal law, which means if you don't pay, they can prosecute you in the courts. You can see the regulatioins at the top of the ECN. From a quick look, it seems the basic regs are at the top. The amendment regulations basically increase the parking charges and the excess charge, because there is no other mechanism to increase them.

5
Others who attend adjudications as reps will know the average time for an adjudication, but it is certainly not hours (plural) ! Also it is a one-time event, following which the adjudicator will decide which party wins.The decision is then sent out and also recorded on their Statutory Register.

6
Try contacting (awful, horrible), Havering to find out why they are not registering the PCN at TEC.

7
Thanks for looking into this. I will appeal based on this.

I dont mind taking them to the Tribunal , if that's what it will take but just wanted to know if I have actual grounds for an appeal. Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Its very much appreciated.
Just remember that the discount option is not available at London Tribunals as it is a discount for early payment

8
Who was driving "on the day" is irrelevant, the owner has legal responsibility for PCNs (payment or appeals).

9
So it looks from your photos that you were parked here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/crY2s2DdQGmDrDoe8
and there is a sign on the side that you parked, but the cretins have put it by the bay adjacent to the gate across the street.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/n8nXCSfHoLQoq5A76

This bay is separated from yours by the double-yellow lines. This means the bay you parked in is in a separate set of bays that require their own sign, but as you say, there is no sign.

So you should submit representations stating that the bay you parked in was one of a group of (Nn), but had no sign with the bay restrictions. With no sign, this means the bays are uncontrolled and the PCN is therefore void, so you request it is cancelled forthwith.
The problem you will have is that Redbridge, being greedy for your money, will just send you a Fob-Off letter, thus forcing you to either pay the discount, or wait for the Notice to Owner and submit a formal representation this time. The discount is lost at the NtO stage, although it is likely Redbridge would re-offer it when they reject your formal reps. Really the only way to get a result is to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. Councils know people are reluctant to do this, so they ruthlessly game the system to "encourage" payment.

So are you the owner with your name and address on the V5C for the car, and is the V5C address up-to-date ?


10
No it's not all 'online', but appeals at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal are virtually all by phone or video nowadays, Check their website for this: -
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/

The council will present an evidence pack that will include your reps and their response, but you should present your own reps and evidence updated to reflect and refute what they said in their letter of rejection.

Never ask for a papers-only adjudication, i.e no hearing. Experience of this forum is that they tend to be lost because the adjudicator cannot ask questions on what may be semantics in your reps, so it all is taken at face value; not good !

11
Your dad, as the registered keeper, retains legal responsibility for payment or appeal of the PCN but can nominate a person to act for him at the adjudication, (yourself), but if the case is lost he must pay the pcn, and you, (obviously) reimburse him.

12
Sorry I tried to post them but they’ve not rendered for some reason. Does this link work?
https://imgpile.com/p/l6FE9Lc#8ygzYjc
Yes it does, and I'm puzzled why TEC say it's not clear who your witness is, maybe they want something that says "solicitors and commissioners for oaths" against the solicitors name and address, as the form says. Your address is blank, so you need to put that in and resubmit.

13
Stamfordman has identified what could be a winning argument at London Tribunals.

Thaousands of people have taken councils and also TfL to the London Tribunals over the years. There is nothing daunting about it, and almost all hearings are by phone or video (MS Teams, I think). No oath swearing, it is all fairly informal. Councils and TfL rarely attend. If you lose you pay the full PCN penalty, but there are no additional costs at all, and if you win, you pay nothing, but Brent will have had the PITA of preparing an evidence pack and also paying the LT adjudication fee.

So it's up to you, pay the discount, or stand your ground at LT, but my view is it is not a slam-dunk win. So for the strongest case presentation, follow Stamfordman's line of approach.

14
Sorry, but you need to post up the documents and letters.

 We particularly need to see this document: -
Quote
We also had to send something to tfl signed by an officer of the court to say we had appealed to the tribunal. We got a response back saying we hadn’t filled in address (correct) and it was unclear who witnessed the signature (even though there is the company stamp from the law firm and the name of the person signing is crystal clear. The whole thing seems absolutely ridiculous and is stressing my mum out as it now stands at £240 which is a lot for her.

15
Try submitting informal, non-confrontational representations on the lines that you saw what seemed to be a bay and parked. Explain that you were not aware of the practice of painting over bay markings if the bay is removed, and tell them the offence will not occur again. Ask for the PCN to be cancelled on this ocasion. OK, they will probably refuse them, but at least they'll have had to do some work for the money !

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