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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Movieman9000 on November 21, 2023, 10:07:40 am

Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on April 30, 2024, 03:50:27 pm
Hi all,

Just to update the council have cancelled the 2nd ticket, thanks for everyones help :)
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 27, 2023, 06:40:24 pm
thank you very much appeal submitted, I'll report back once I have an update. How do I donate / buy the forum a coffee ?
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 27, 2023, 06:24:25 pm
Honestly it doesn't make a difference.
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 26, 2023, 04:43:03 pm
That's MEGA thanks so much, note - i edited to reflect WE5188847A was issued 12.09 and WE51888480 12.10

when appealing should I go down the "I wish to make representations about this PCN for other reasons" OR "There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority" or does it not make any difference

thanks
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 26, 2023, 03:54:46 pm
Here you go:

Dear City of Westminster,

We challenge liability for PCN WE5188847A on the following grounds. Firstly we had lent this vehicle to Mr Movieman9000, whose father has recently passed away. Mr Movieman9000 was engaged in clearing his father's flat at (insert address) and we understand that PCN WE51888480 which was issued at the same time and has since been cancelled. In the first instance we would ask that the PCN be cancelled on compassionate grounds, given the driver's circumstances.

In any even it does not appear to us that PCN WE5188847A was properly issued. We had no notice of this PCN until we received the Notice to Owner, and Mr Movieman9000 did not find this PCN attached to the vehicle, there are no photos confirming this second PCN was served. Furthermore even if PCN WE5188847A had been properly served this PCN was issued at 12:10, just 1 minute after PCN WE51888480 was issued to the same vehicle for the same contravention. While there might be some scope for debate of whether consecutive PCNs can be issued for the same contravention on consecutive days, there can be no sensible suggestion that a second PCN can be issued 1 minute after the previous one, or else a CEO could simply issue 1 PCN a minute which would result in PCNs totalling £7,800 an hour, discounted to £3,900 if paid within 14 days, this would clearly be absurd.

In light of the above the PCN should be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,
(friend's name)
For and on behalf of (Company name) Ltd
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 26, 2023, 02:11:12 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on November 26, 2023, 01:42:20 pm
Quote from: Movieman9000 on November 25, 2023, 06:22:12 pm
yeah they are fine with it ( i am friends with the manager there) I put my details as the point of contact in the successful appeal as naturally this situation was me helping him out so I would deal with it.
It doesn't work like that, only an employee can acted on behalf of a company based on ostensible or apparent authority. So, either the representation has to come from your friend (and from his work email address) or you have to get a letter of authority from the company.

If you just make a representation yourself, the council will either ignore it or tell you that you're not the registered keeper and you have no right to make representations.

Don't worry about the representations, once we've confirmed who they'll be coming from I'll draft something for you.
ok mate I understand, my friend (the manager) can make the representation from his work email address
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 26, 2023, 01:42:20 pm
Quote from: Movieman9000 on November 25, 2023, 06:22:12 pm
yeah they are fine with it ( i am friends with the manager there) I put my details as the point of contact in the successful appeal as naturally this situation was me helping him out so I would deal with it.
It doesn't work like that, only an employee can acted on behalf of a company based on ostensible or apparent authority. So, either the representation has to come from your friend (and from his work email address) or you have to get a letter of authority from the company.

If you just make a representation yourself, the council will either ignore it or tell you that you're not the registered keeper and you have no right to make representations.

Don't worry about the representations, once we've confirmed who they'll be coming from I'll draft something for you.
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 25, 2023, 06:22:12 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 06:17:07 pm
Will the company be happy for your friend to challenge the NTO on the company's behalf?
yeah they are fine with it ( i am friends with the manager there) I put my details as the point of contact in the successful appeal as naturally this situation was me helping him out so I would deal with it.

but I really don't understand how they can do what they have done, basically just re-issue the ticket 1 minute earlier than the original cancelled ticket with no evidence (nothing left on windscreen and claiming that its now at NTO stage)
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 06:17:07 pm
Will the company be happy for your friend to challenge the NTO on the company's behalf?
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 25, 2023, 11:31:33 am
My friend works for them, they have a fleet of vans they use for deliveries.  I asked if he could help me and bring a company van (saves hire costs for me)
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 11:15:32 am
Quote from: Movieman9000 on November 23, 2023, 01:15:50 pm
Hi the NTO is in the ltd company name
What's your connection to the ltd company, is that just a hire company?

If it's just a hire company, did they just forward the NTO to you?
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 23, 2023, 01:15:50 pm
Hi the NTO is in the ltd company name
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: H C Andersen on November 23, 2023, 01:10:39 pm

OP, to be clear, the NTO is in your name?
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 23, 2023, 11:46:03 am
thanks for your reply, unfortunately I don't have the ticket anymore. I threw it away once I received the cancellation letter (this is for PCN WE51888480)

I didn't think this kind of thing was possible (issuing 2 tickets right next to each other)


     * just some thoughts do you think I could ask for the photos for the new PCN? they would send the same ones as the other ticket and thus they have ticketed the same offence twice.

     * When I do appeal do I need to appeal as a rep from the ltd company (van owner) or the driver, appealed as driver)

     * Would this count as a procedural impropriety

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/parking-england-grounds-of-appeal/
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: cp8759 on November 22, 2023, 11:12:21 pm
This is what I get from https://appeals.westminster.gov.uk/ (https://appeals.westminster.gov.uk/):

(https://i.imgur.com/XJwgoLq.png)

Looking at the photos from the other PCN, it might well be in contravention:

(https://i.imgur.com/sxNqSl0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pOjGkql.jpg)

Do you still have PCN WE51888480? If so, please post up both sides in full.
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: John U.K. on November 21, 2023, 01:25:57 pm
That's not much help -round and round in circles :( . Some Councils give a history of a PCN's progress.

Quote
its a delivery company I have done work for in the past i am friends with one of the managers so he agreed to help me with a van to save hire costs, we went together. he is the manager and deals with all the PCN's
[/i]

Whilst waiting for the experts here to check in, confirm with your friend that the company got an NtO, asked Westminster to cancel it, and received a notice of acceptance of their request from Westminster.

N.B. I'm not one of the experts, but I suspect Westminster will accept your eventual reps against the NtO (it is addressed to you and not the company?). However, I am trying to build up a complete picture to ensure best chance of success should they reject your reps.
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 21, 2023, 12:43:46 pm
Quote from: John U.K. on November 21, 2023, 12:11:14 pm
As you hired the van I suspect someone has removed the original PCN and therefore Westminster sent the NtO to the hire company (Voltia?) who then notified the council with your details.
its a delivery company I have done work for in the past i am friends with one of the managers so he agreed to help me with a van to save hire costs, we went together. he is the manager and deals with all the PCN's

Quote from: John U.K. on November 21, 2023, 12:11:14 pm
However, I cannot get Westminster's site to work for this PCN (it does for the other). What happens when you clicked on the link 'Your PCN is at Notice to Owner stage. PCN process information' ?
it takes me to this web address https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking/challenge-penalty-charge-notice-pcn


Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: John U.K. on November 21, 2023, 12:11:14 pm
As you hired the van I suspect someone has removed the original PCN and therefore Westminster sent the NtO to the hire company (Voltia?) who then notified the council with your details.

However, I cannot get Westminster's site to work for this PCN (it does for the other). What happens when you clicked on the link 'Your PCN is at Notice to Owner stage. PCN process information' ?
Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 21, 2023, 10:52:18 am
Hi :)

Google Street view

hi this is correct https://maps.app.goo.gl/m29qKvHCMv3CY5i38 there are now bollards etc in the middle so it makes more sense to park in the middle as this allows cars to pass either side easily

Quote
Then you refer to a "ticket" looking at the Council logs, you received two PCNs affixed to vehicle, and one, possibly two NtOs by post.
there was only 1 ticket attached to the vehicle we appealed it and it was cancelled. is it even possible to issue a ticket 12.09 and then a ticket 12.10, i don't know about you but it feels like they trying to have another go , maybe a boss has returned or they have been offered bonus if they can get X more payments through the door


Quote
Please show us all sides of the 'live' NtO (only redact name and address) and of the current PCN, with a GSV link to the location
. attached

Quote
For the settled PCN, please show us a copy of your challenge/reps and of the letter accepting the reps
- attached, a death certificate and council tax bill and my ID were sent to confirm the address and who I was

Quote
Are there any photos online for the current NtO?
- No photos available for current NTO, only for the settled one, see "new PCN screenshot" if any photos are available they post them in the top right hand corner online, see post for new and old PCN photos https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/westminster-council-code-26-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-more-than-50cm-/msg10800/#msg10800

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Title: Re: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway
Post by: John U.K. on November 21, 2023, 10:32:15 am
Trying to come to terms with what " We parked in the middle of the road " might mean - here, perhaps?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/m29qKvHCMv3CY5i38

Then you refer to a "ticket" looking at the Council logs, you received two PCNs affixed to vehicle, and one, possibly two NtOs by post.

Please show us all sides of the 'live' NtO (only redact name and address) and of the current PCN, with a GSV link to the location.
For the settled PCN, please show us a copy of your challenge/reps and of the letter accepting the reps.

Are there any photos online for the current NtO?
Title: Westminster Council - code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway and
Post by: Movieman9000 on November 21, 2023, 10:07:40 am
Hi guys,

I was wondering if you could help me. a friend and I were clearing out my dads house (council tenant) as he died recently. We parked in the middle of the road, there is street parking but its signage is hidden.


I appealed the ticket and the council cancelled it BUT today I have received another ticket issued 1 minute before the previous cancelled ticket, with no photos and everything else is the same except the issue time 12.10 and 12.09

code 26 - Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the
edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking place


Should I just appeal it showing the previous ticket has been cancelled

Time line of events

vehicle reg CP70HWN
https://appeals.westminster.gov.uk/
Date of NTO 16/11/2023

new PCN the one with no photos - live
no Parking ticket on windscreen provided
WE5188847A
First seen at Fri, 15 Sep 2023 12:02
Issued at Fri, 15 Sep 2023 12:09

Original PCN - appealed successfully (appealed 20 Sept 2023, cancelled 21st Sept 2023)
Parking ticket on windscreen provided
WE51888480
First seen Fri, 15 Sep 2023 12:02
Issued Fri, 15 Sep 2023 12:10

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