Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: chigz on June 26, 2023, 01:15:48 pm

Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: DWMB2 on July 31, 2023, 03:51:57 pm: Good result, well done and thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 31, 2023, 03:44:53 pm: yes I had proof of receipt.

I emailed to ask why it hasnt been put on hold and received a notice today that the PCN has been cancelled.
Thank you all for the support!
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 26, 2023, 07:06:01 pm: Do you have proof of submission?

+1.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: DWMB2 on July 26, 2023, 04:46:37 pm: The BPA's Code of Practice is applicable here:
23.6 When you receive a appeal about the issue of a parking charge, you must stop work on processing the charge
immediately. You must not increase the charge until you have replied to the appeal.

Issuing an 'overdue' notice doesn't seem like 'stopping work on processing' to me - you may wish to write to them to express your surprise in receiving an overdue payment notice when they have not yet responded to your appeal. Ask for confirmation that they have received it, and perhaps attach a copy in case they haven't.

Do you have proof of submission?
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 26, 2023, 12:56:07 pm: Thanks for the feedback.

I haven't replied but received a |Overdue payment notice despite appealing well within the time frame. Would you suggest responding to this or ignoring it until I get a response to my appeal?

Thank you
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 21, 2023, 06:21:16 pm: No, why would you?

If your account is accurate, then you were parked as stated in your appeal and FP's own records - their claim is based in 'double-dipping' - should show this. ECP's evidence was almost the equivalent of exclusion fingerprints, they would prove a negative whereas FP's can prove your case.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 19, 2023, 11:29:21 am: So ECP have responded saying they do not keep records for more than 10 days, do I need to update FP with this information?
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 08, 2023, 10:58:21 am: Thank you
I have submitted the appeal, i will keep the forum updated on any outcome
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 06, 2023, 12:35:34 pm: You posted:
The driver entered through the Coop car around 14:00pm at which point used the through road to drive into your car park. Upon realising the car parks were different the driver left and returned back into the Coop car park.
The final exit time as per the PCN was when the driver drove through the service station. Please refer back to your own logs to see all entries of exits of this vehicle. Furthermore, as the registered keeper I have submitted a SAR to Euro Car Parks to provide their logs as further evidence of entry and exit times.

Make it as easy as you can for FP to find your entrances and exits and don't presume any knowledge on their part as to the layout on site.

On the day in question the driver went to the Co-op and entered from Station Road at approx. 2pm. The Co-op offer 90 minutes' free parking to customers.
As you may know, there isn't much natural cover in this car park and so the driver drove into what they thought was an overflow car park to find some. Once they were there they could see that you allowed parking for longer but at a charge. They left immediately via your Station Road exit and did a 180 degree back to the Co-op where they parked and then shopped. When they left they took advantage of the short-cut through your car park and exited via the service station. A total of 2 entrances into your site and 2 exits. I would estimate a total of less than 2 minutes in your site and even less time stationary.
Your cameras must have captured every in and out but for some reason have only flagged-up the first and last which makes 2 minutes appear to be 36 minutes. Please look again at your camera records where in addition to the views in your PCN you will find my car exiting your site at 2pm-2.10 and entering again from the Co-op at around 2.35pm.
I have requested the operator of the Co-op's car park to provide their camera coverage but have not yet received their data. As this would show that I entered their site at approx. 2pm and again at approx. 2.10-2.12(I don't know whether your cameras are 'in sync') it follows that as the car couldn't in two different places at the same time there was no contravention and I should be pleased to receive your confirmation that you have cancelled this charge.

Thank you
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 06, 2023, 10:30:23 am: To whom it may concern,

I am writing I regards to the PCN ref:xxxx.
I am appealing the fine on the basis that the driver did not actually use the car park but just drove through.
The driver entered through the Coop car around 14:00pm at which point used the through road to drive into your car park. Upon realising the car parks were different the driver left and returned back into the Coop car park.
The final exit time as per the PCN was when the driver drove through the service station. Please refer back to your own logs to see all entries of exits of this vehicle. Furthermore, as the registered keeper I have submitted a SAR to Euro Car Parks to provide their logs as further evidence of entry and exit times.
Lastly, having spoken to Nigel Hackling, the land owner, and explaining the situation, he has said to submit this appeal after which the PCN will be cancelled.
I am hoping the explanation and your own logs will provide you with the evidence required to cancel this PCN, however if this is not the case please do not determine the appeal before day 30 after receipt thereby allowing the data protection officer for Euro Car Parks to respond within the 28 day limit.
Many thanks

Sorry if this isnt up to scratch would appreciate any support. Should I also ask FP for a SAR?
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 04, 2023, 03:24:00 pm: I suggest you submit a SAR to ECP. If they don't respond within the 28-day period allowed for an appeal against the PCN (which ends on the 14 July) submit this to FP with your account and add that you would provide this definitive evidence when received, in which case you would request that the creditor doesn't determine your appeal before day 30 after receipt thereby allowing the data protection officer to respond in time and the creditor to not breach their 35-day limit.

SAR is a data protection request and nothing as such to do with parking.

ECP
https://www.eurocarparks.com/privacy-statement/

Look at how to obtain data. You would also see that they say they erase after 10 days. Provide info as to your reason for submitting the request, identity, a copy of your V5C with name, address VRM clearly visible, your driving licence and a recent utility bill with name and address should suffice.

As regards FP, you might as well include this in your appeal by directing them, as best as you can, to specific times on the day when your vehicle should have been captured by their ANPR.

Start work on your appeal here and post for comments.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 04, 2023, 02:46:25 pm: Could you help me with what my next steps would be here there in that case?

Would I post my appeal for review here?
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 04, 2023, 02:39:21 pm: According to GSV this is a camera-controlled car park operated by Euro Car Parks, nowt to do with the local management.

Now, if they say they wipe data of non-offending cars after 14 days (they have 14 days in which to serve PCNs on offending cars) then they might not have the evidence you need, in which case you'll need to pursue FP Ltd.

As regards a template, there isn't one because the issue in dispute is whether the creditor has the right to enforce against the driver and in default the keeper which is to do with facts on the day, not technicalities in notices.

The driver(pl be careful in posting responses not to fall into the trap of naming or inferring the driver) has an account and this is all that can be put to FP.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 04, 2023, 10:06:57 am: I am not sceptical, they said they only keep their recordings for 2 weeks, they don't have a ANPR system. I asked them a week ago but they forgot to get the records and now they are wiped. They did speak to the owner of the land and have suggested appealing saying that I have spoken with the owner of the other car park and the PCN should be waived, but that is all they can do.

is there a template I can follow to create my appeal? I know the wording needs to be correct so don't want to dig myself a future hole!
Thanks
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 03, 2023, 09:54:44 pm: Why are you so sceptical of the Co-op? Did they say they would ask for them? Why shouldn't they either do so or suggest to you to submit a Subject Access Request to the data protection officer of the parking operator at the Co-op site?

Where the vehicle was and when is not a state secret, it's been recorded.As the registered keeper you have a legal right to the information.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on July 03, 2023, 01:06:44 pm: Quote from: John U.K. on July 01, 2023, 07:01:40 pm
Quote from: chigz on June 30, 2023, 01:37:50 pm

In the heading of your post (as above) as the writer you will also see a button marked'Modify'. Clicking on this enables you to edit the post.

I don't have an option to modify?

[attachimg=1]

This is the timeline of events, I have just read about double dipping, and looking at the times i think this may have been a triple dip! As the final correlates with leaving Bourton.

Yes the its one way only.
1. In Co-op - just before 2pm and recorded on the Co-op parking operator's camera;
2. Used the through road to exit Co-op/in Bourbon; 2pm recorded at least by FPL;
3. Parked up, sorted out a few things for the wife as she was feeding our baby. started walking over to Coop to see the different parking signs. Went back to the car and left Bourton Vale car; not sure what time but possibly 10 mins?
4. Turned left and went back into Co-op car park for a 2nd time, minutes after leaving Bourton Vale Car park
5. Left Coop car park using the through road again. Unsure what time
6. Used the Bourton Vale car park again to turn the car rather than doing it on the roads. By going through the service station this time. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8857778,-1.7541623,3a,75y,293.95h,87.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssgR_9n2Tyw-9mgNcciRejw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Hopefully this is now a clear timeline. I have tried contact Coop to see if they can get me the logs but so far no luck.

Any ideas what to do next?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: John U.K. on July 01, 2023, 07:01:40 pm: Quote from: chigz on June 30, 2023, 01:37:50 pm

How do i edit the post above i dont see an option?
Quote
Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
« on: June 26, 2023, 01:15:48 pm » Quote

In the heading of your post (as above) as the writer you will also see a button marked'Modify'. Clicking on this enables you to edit the post.
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: guest179 on July 01, 2023, 05:53:15 pm: Anyone who is familiar with the car park will know its has a connecting access to the Coop car park, i mistakenly drove through the coop car park to park in a shaded spot in the Bourton Vale car park (baby on board). When I realised they car parks were different I went back and parked in the Co-op car park and then left again through the Bourton vale car park exit. So for some reason they have only registered my first entry and the 2nd exit point.

Cah you break this down pl. GSV suggests that vehicles can only go from the Co-op to Bourbon and not the other way. If so then the driver's route was:
1. In Co-op - just before 2pm and recorded on the Co-op parking operator's camera;
2. Exit Co-op/in Bourbon; 2pm recorded at least by FPL;
3. Leave Bourbon; presumably moments after 2pm;
4. Enter Co-op 2nd time: before 2.36pm;
5. Exit Co-op/in Bourbon: moments before 2.36pm.
6. Exit Bourbon: 2.36.

If so, then I suggest you need car park logs....but not FPL's!

You find out from the Co-op whether their operator has cameras trained on the exit to Bourbon.
Then find out from their operator your times in and out(to Bourbon). If you can then you have a cast-iron defence i.e. the driver could not be continuously parked in Bourbon and driving into the Co-op at the same time.
You tell us whether the driver exited the car the first time they entered Bourbon and for how long the car was within the limits of their car park(again this might be obvious from the Co-op operator's data).
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on June 30, 2023, 01:37:50 pm: I have attached the PCN

https://imgur.com/9Yf45Sl

https://imgur.com/vXprRCT

How do i edit the post above i dont see an option?
Title: Re: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: DWMB2 on June 26, 2023, 11:31:19 pm: First step - Edit your post to not reveal who was driving. 'The driver' drove and you'll deal with the matter as the registered keeper (assuming you are?).

Yes, let's see the notice you've received. Show us both pages, redact personal info but leave on all dates and times.

Don't waste time asking for logs - they likely won't provide them, and it won't stop the clock on their appeal deadline. What has happened is known as a 'double dip', where their cameras/systems have failed to record two separate visits and instead recorded one long visit. Your appeal can state this as fact. But before firing anything off, let's see the notice you've received.
Title: Future parking Limited - PCN - Bourton Vale Car park
Post by: chigz on June 26, 2023, 01:15:48 pm: Hello,

I recently received a PCN from Future parking ltd for allegedly parking without paying. This was at the Bourton Vale car park.

Anyone who is familiar with the car park will know its has a connecting access to the Coop car park, the driver mistakenly drove through the coop car park to park in a shaded spot in the Bourton Vale car park (baby on board). When the driver realised they car parks were different the driver went back and parked in the Co-op car park and then left again through the Bourton vale car park exit. So for some reason they have only registered the driver's first entry and the 2nd exit point.

I wanted to reply by asking them for the full logs but, just wanted to check how to word this in the right way so not to cause any future issues with an appeal.

Not sure if the PCN is needed to be uploaded now but can do if required.

Thank you