Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: D D on November 19, 2023, 07:34:39 am

Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 10:20:03 am
@D D that's understandable, hopefully that's the last time you send something by post when you have an online option.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 26, 2024, 11:36:55 pm
@cp8759 I appreciate your concerns but I think I’m going to just let this one pass as I’ve had something more serious come up plus I think to much time has passed for the out of scope forms to be submitted to transport office.
And to add the worst issue here was I lost the damn receipt of postage if only I had this I could have had them by the balls as they cost me an additional £70 odd claiming they never received it even though I sent it via signed for 24hr service.

As the saying goes, ‘you win some you loose some’

I learnt from this one,
Parking in an entrance/loading space like I did is still classed as highways.
Be sure to place receipts in a safe place  ;D

Thank you all for your efforts on this one it’s greatly appreciated.

Be lucky out there  8)
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 08:04:14 pm
Any advice would be greatly appreciated for returning the TE 7 & 9  :)
@D D all I can suggest is that you give a full and frank account of events so far. Write a draft and post it on here urgently, and tag me in your reply.

You see it is for this very reason that we always advise to throw the paper TE9 in the bin and just do everything by email, if only you'd done that all these problems could have been avoided.

Did you find the postal receipt?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 15, 2024, 01:17:19 pm
Any advice would be greatly appreciated for returning the TE 7 & 9  :)
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 13, 2024, 08:31:14 pm

what would you recommend the next move should be on this?


There is only one action open to you procedurally and this is for the recipient to complete and submit the WS in time!

So firstly, are you the addressee(AKA recipient)?

If so, then you complete the WS by ticking only one box, dating, signing and sending to TEC using one the methods offered and within time.

Without going back over the thread, which grounds apply to you? To keep this short the whys don't arise, only the whats. So which grounds? Is it:

a)that P did not receive the enforcement notice;

Noting that the following applies:

“enforcement notice”, other than in regulation 35, means—
(a)a regulation 10 penalty charge notice, or

(b)a notice to owner;

(a) doesn't apply here, so it's (b), yes?

Pl don't get distracted by anything else e.g. the format of the OfR, it's irrelevant at this stage.

The out of time documents require both TE7 and 9 completed and returned…
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 13, 2024, 07:26:04 pm
I don't follow.

What you need is facts, not generalities such as we're having issues with mail. Remember, TEC did receive your WS, so the question which remains is WHY did they reject it. Was this?

It was completed incorrectly;
It was received late;

Or both?

We're still blind.


Your WS was dated  X
They received it into their system on  Y
They rejected, but we don't know why.
For obvious reasons TEC will only act on when they received the WS, NOT the date someone wrote on it.

So: you need date of posting - sadly you'll have to rely upon RM as you've mislaid your proof of posting.
You also need the date TEC received it - for completeness.
Was the WS completed correctly- as you didn't keep a copy you'll have to rely upon TEC.

Unfortunately RM was unable to assist me with retrieving the tracking so I am a bit screwed there.

I have received the OUT OF TIME APPLICATION which includes the TE7 & TE9

The TE7 has a reason box for ‘The above named respondent applies for permission to file a statement to file a witness statement:’

Am I meant to put the reason of ‘not received a NTO’ here?

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 10, 2024, 10:21:48 am
I don't follow.

What you need is facts, not generalities such as we're having issues with mail. Remember, TEC did receive your WS, so the question which remains is WHY did they reject it. Was this?

It was completed incorrectly;
It was received late;

Or both?

We're still blind.


Your WS was dated  X
They received it into their system on  Y
They rejected, but we don't know why.
For obvious reasons TEC will only act on when they received the WS, NOT the date someone wrote on it.

So: you need date of posting - sadly you'll have to rely upon RM as you've mislaid your proof of posting.
You also need the date TEC received it - for completeness.
Was the WS completed correctly- as you didn't keep a copy you'll have to rely upon TEC.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 10, 2024, 09:13:35 am
Or phone, but do it first thing pl.

As regards RM, I'm no expert but I'd be surprised if they can't work backwards from the addressee, approx or better still exact date it was posted etc.

Contact made this morning explained the situation, they said there is issues with mail… check the tracking which I’ll try my luck with RM this afternoon fingers crossed!

Form I received from them is a WS Out of Time Application

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 09, 2024, 05:58:33 pm
Or phone, but do it first thing pl.

As regards RM, I'm no expert but I'd be surprised if they can't work backwards from the addressee, approx or better still exact date it was posted etc.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 09, 2024, 12:57:04 pm
Thanks.

'In-time' was up to 11 Apr.
You posted on 6th that you had already returned the WS.
Therefore it would have been presumed delivered in time as you say you used the correct address. You also say it was completed correctly.

But TEC did not action the WS, therefore you should contact them and the Royal Mail.

I still recommend paying because if the error is found to be yours this could add £235 to your debt after 10th.

You have still not confirmed who was the addressee on the OfR. It's a belts and braces check.

Ok will pay to avoid further fees and look further into seeing why I have not received a response. I’m not sure how to pursue with Royal Mail as annoying I cannot find the receipt  :-\
I guess I could email the TEC to see why I have not received correspondence to start with?

The OfR was addressed to myself and my address.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 09, 2024, 09:19:55 am
Thanks.

'In-time' was up to 11 Apr.
You posted on 6th that you had already returned the WS.
Therefore it would have been presumed delivered in time as you say you used the correct address. You also say it was completed correctly.

But TEC did not action the WS, therefore you should contact them and the Royal Mail.

I still recommend paying because if the error is found to be yours this could add £235 to your debt after 10th.

You have still not confirmed who was the addressee on the OfR. It's a belts and braces check.


Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 09, 2024, 08:43:17 am

I filled out my details and the lease company on the WS and ticked,

This should have nothing to do with the lease company. They are not the respondent, you are, or we're led to believe you are.

Alarm bells are ringing.

Where is the OfR?

And confirm it's addressed to you.

My bad after looking at the form again I didn’t include the lease company details on right side of form.

The OfR is attached


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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 08, 2024, 09:31:08 pm

I filled out my details and the lease company on the WS and ticked,

This should have nothing to do with the lease company. They are not the respondent, you are, or we're led to believe you are.

Alarm bells are ringing.

Where is the OfR?

And confirm it's addressed to you.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 08:10:08 pm
IMO, you should pay the outstanding debt before 23.59 10 May.

Why?

Because it caps your liability while not affecting your options to investigate why the OfR which you say you returned in time was not actioned by TEC.

A few questions:
Find out from ABC when your NTO and the Charge Cert were issued;
Post what you actually submitted to TEC, not a blank form, and tell us what date is recorded on your registered mail and the address to which your WS was sent.
Confirm that the OfR was addressed to you.

Also, way back in early April you were asked to post the OfR which you received and to provide details of when and how you sent your WS and to post this.

All we have had is that it was posted by registered mail.

You are in a pickle and whether it's possible to extricate yourself is an unknown until you post the key data.


I filled out my details and the lease company on the WS and ticked,
I did not receive the Notice to Owner / penalty • charge notice (Parking contravention).

Signed printed and dated.
And sent to the address on the rear,

St Katherine's House,
21 - 27 St Katherine's Street
Northampton
NN1 2LH
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 08:01:05 pm
I thought I’d try my luck knowing how slow ABC are and see if the PCN was still alive on their website but it’s also showing as in Marston’s hands now.


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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 07:55:21 pm
Hi hope you’re doing well sir, what would you recommend the next move should be on this?
@D D download form TE9 from https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf and fill it in, then email the completed form to justice@tec.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line. There is no need to print the form, a typed signature will be accepted.

I should have done this method smh

I’m normally all about the electronic route but this time I done it the old fashioned way and ahot myself in the foot now cannot find the receipt.

Is there a way of contacting the TEC to see whether they received the letter?

Regards
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 07:49:21 pm
I think I might be in a pickle as I cannot find the postal receipt plus while I was looking I found an un opened letter that my lovely mrs laid on top of the fridge and never told me about it!

This obviously came before the TE3…

This is a charge cert from ABC titled to myself as shown below…

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 08, 2024, 06:39:13 pm
No, generally and specifically.

At 0001 on 11th £235 could be added to the debt: https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014

If the error is found to be with TEC, then your payment would be refunded. But if not then you arguing the toss would in all likelihood add £235 to your debt with nowhere for you to turn other than possibly request a review of TEC's decision - but if this was based on you not submitting in time or other procedural error then their decision was correct.

We don't know whether you responded as required i.e. tick one box and sign because you didn't keep a copy therefore we cannot examine.

Neither do we know by when you had to respond because you haven't posted the OfR which you received.

So even if you told us when you posted your WS, we'd still be guessing as to  whether you did so into time.

I suggest you post the info requested pl.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 02:15:47 pm
I filled the form with the guidance from here which applied to my case and returned it to their postal address, unfortunately I didn’t capture an image of the form filled before sending but I do hold the postage receipt at hand.

I don’t see why I should pay when the form has been ignored this should be investigated first hand no?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on May 08, 2024, 01:52:52 pm
IMO, you should pay the outstanding debt before 23.59 10 May.

Why?

Because it caps your liability while not affecting your options to investigate why the OfR which you say you returned in time was not actioned by TEC.

A few questions:
Find out from ABC when your NTO and the Charge Cert were issued;
Post what you actually submitted to TEC, not a blank form, and tell us what date is recorded on your registered mail and the address to which your WS was sent.
Confirm that the OfR was addressed to you.

Also, way back in early April you were asked to post the OfR which you received and to provide details of when and how you sent your WS and to post this.

All we have had is that it was posted by registered mail.

You are in a pickle and whether it's possible to extricate yourself is an unknown until you post the key data.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 08, 2024, 12:35:30 am
I already used the form that came with the letter and sent it back via recorded mail.
Please post the form you received and please confirm when you posted the form to TEC. Aa a general rule using the post rather than email is a bad idea as you're adding an unnecessary delay and element of risk, but hopefully it will be ok.

It was sent via recorded mail.

The form I completed and returned is the following.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on May 07, 2024, 12:47:05 pm
Well there was a long silence regarding the correspondence I sent which appears to have either been ignored or not received (will have to look for the receipt of posting I’m sure I have it stored with my receipts)

Marston recovery have been instructed now and apparently a warrant has been issued.

Please see attached and let me know how to respond would be greatly appreciated.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on April 06, 2024, 11:04:46 pm
I already used the form that came with the letter and sent it back via recorded mail.
Please post the form you received and please confirm when you posted the form to TEC. Aa a general rule using the post rather than email is a bad idea as you're adding an unnecessary delay and element of risk, but hopefully it will be ok.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on April 06, 2024, 03:25:15 pm
Hi hope you’re doing well sir, what would you recommend the next move should be on this?
@D D download form TE9 from https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf and fill it in, then email the completed form to justice@tec.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line. There is no need to print the form, a typed signature will be accepted.

Hi thanks for the response.
I already used the form that came with the letter and sent it back via recorded mail.
I will update here once I receive a response.

Thanks
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 07:15:17 pm
Hi hope you’re doing well sir, what would you recommend the next move should be on this?
@D D download form TE9 from https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf and fill it in, then email the completed form to justice@tec.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line. There is no need to print the form, a typed signature will be accepted.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on March 22, 2024, 02:00:31 pm

what would you recommend the next move should be on this?


There is only one action open to you procedurally and this is for the recipient to complete and submit the WS in time!

So firstly, are you the addressee(AKA recipient)?

If so, then you complete the WS by ticking only one box, dating, signing and sending to TEC using one the methods offered and within time.

Without going back over the thread, which grounds apply to you? To keep this short the whys don't arise, only the whats. So which grounds? Is it:

a)that P did not receive the enforcement notice;

Noting that the following applies:

“enforcement notice”, other than in regulation 35, means—
(a)a regulation 10 penalty charge notice, or

(b)a notice to owner;

(a) doesn't apply here, so it's (b), yes?

Pl don't get distracted by anything else e.g. the format of the OfR, it's irrelevant at this stage.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on March 22, 2024, 01:16:59 pm
I would just wait, there's no rush.

Hi hope you’re doing well sir, what would you recommend the next move should be on this?

Regards
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on March 21, 2024, 04:09:12 am
While you are waiting for the experts here, please check the online status and history and report.

Looks to be still active on their website, allows payment or challenge.

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on March 21, 2024, 04:01:29 am
I never received a correctly issued NTO in the mail.

The lease company notified me of the NTO not addressed to me a while back but then there was silence, Ashford BC never issued anything.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: Phantomcrusader on March 20, 2024, 05:12:22 pm
Who is responsible for ensuring the TE9 lists all the regulated grounds? Should be a PI for always omitting 2 statutory grounds.


Quote
(2) A witness statement must state one and only one of the following—

(a)that P did not receive the enforcement notice;

(b)that P made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 5 of the 2022 Appeals Regulations but a notice of rejection was not received from that authority in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;

(c)that P appealed to an adjudicator under regulation 7 of those Regulations against the rejection by the enforcement authority of representations made under regulation 5 of those Regulations but—

(i)P did not receive a response to the appeal,

(ii)the appeal had not been determined by the time the charge certificate was served, or

(iii)the appeal was determined in P’s favour;

(d)that P has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: John U.K. on March 20, 2024, 05:10:23 pm
While you are waiting for the experts here, please check the online status and history and report.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on March 20, 2024, 05:03:08 pm
I thought they had forgotten  ;D
Nope they came back for another round of action.
Here’s what I received today, how should I proceed with the response?

Again thank you all in advance for your time

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on February 02, 2024, 12:03:28 am
I would just wait, there's no rush.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 26, 2024, 11:48:51 pm
Looks like the PCN is still open to pay and appeal…

Shall I still sit tight and wait for something to come through the mail?

Contact the lease Co to ask for confirmation or transfer?

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 26, 2024, 11:43:58 pm
Have you checked the online status?

No I have not checked this.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: John U.K. on January 22, 2024, 08:38:17 am
Have you checked the online status?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 21, 2024, 11:58:24 pm
Still not received a NTO title to myself yet…
Shall I send an email to the lease company asking if the transfer has been completed and a confirmation of this has been received by ABC?
Or just continue to wait for one to arrive in the mail from ABC titled to myself?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 10, 2024, 01:23:02 am
Hopefully it’ll pan out last like time and hopefully go down the tribunal route by the help of @cp8759 and we score another win  ;D
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 10, 2024, 01:19:47 am
I’ll wait for the new NTO to arrive in the post and ask the lease company if they have received confirmation of transfer in a day or so.

@Incandescent not sure if you remember this from few months back but this was their response last time I asked about a pcn.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: Incandescent on January 10, 2024, 01:06:40 am
+1
It seems the lease company are in a state of complete ignorance on Penalty Charge Notices and subsequent enforcement documents.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 10, 2024, 12:40:29 am
This is the notice I got from the lease company.
I have since recently changed my car with them so this one is no longer in use by me.

The lease company have attached a letter stating that they have transferred the liability.

Do I ask the lease company for confirmation of transfer from ABC?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on January 09, 2024, 09:57:50 pm

And what the hell do they expect you to do with this?

It's not addressed to you so you cannot do anything in your name. Did your lease company include a covering letter?

Unless the lease company authorised you to act on their behalf then you cannot do anything with the NTO. Even if they did, all you could would be to make reps on their behalf with their neck still in the noose.

Do they know this?

Did you?

They should transfer liability by completing the vehicle hire company - vehicle on hire grounds.  If they've authorised you to act for them then, odd as it might seem, you could submit the reps on the vehicle hire company grounds but you MUST include the necessary documents.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 09, 2024, 09:44:06 pm
The final page with images

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on January 09, 2024, 09:42:25 pm
Good evening,
After long awaited ABC have finally issued a NTO.

The lease company have forward it to me to read through the attached document for further details and any action I may need to take.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on December 19, 2023, 08:00:10 pm
As it’s a work lease company that we use they’re pretty good at passing the PCN’s on to the drivers they don’t like to get to involved tbh  ;D less admin work for them.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: slapdash on December 17, 2023, 10:38:53 am
There is a risk that the lease company will simply pay it and bill you (along with an admin fee).

It may be a good idea to check what your lease says.

There is a specific process to transfer liability to you which they can undertake. Errors are often made which give rise to other appeal points. An associated admin fee will generally apply, sometime recoverable from the lease company on success.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on December 16, 2023, 11:47:34 pm
Good evening,

Just thought of a little update from my end as it’s been quiet for a while.

Nothing has yet been received from ABC or the lease company.
The vehicle involved has been returned back to the lease company yesterday and I am no longer the driver / keeper.

Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 26, 2023, 12:46:33 am
Let us know when you get the notice to owner.

notification will come through the lease company again first.
I’ll keep you updated once I receive the official one  ;D
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 07:26:34 pm
Let us know when you get the notice to owner.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 25, 2023, 06:15:16 pm
Yes exactly what I thought, let’s proceed. What do you advise?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 03:14:54 pm
I’m guessing they clicked the link?
Yes they did, but I'm not sure they've understood it.

So the next step is the notice to owner if you want to carry on.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 24, 2023, 11:02:13 am
Here is a draft representation:

Dear Ashford Borough Council,

I challenge liability on the basis of the decision in Branislav Baca v Portsmouth City Council (PO00033-2309, 17 November 2023) which you can access at LINK.

In light of that, the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1HLgXkoFeKSPDT1k09A_jPyaybFvP98ac) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

I’m guessing they clicked the link?
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 23, 2023, 11:09:45 pm
The images that were attached to the pdf also


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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 23, 2023, 11:08:12 pm
Update

Had a response back and they refused to cancel.
They also said we have provided a copy of a Traffic Penalty Tribunal adjudication, however there is nothing in this decision that relates to the PCN being issued to your vehicle.
The adjudication relates to a Notice to Owner being issued. This vehicle has been issued with a PCN and all regulations and information is correct on the PCN.



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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 22, 2023, 01:21:39 am
Submitted, I’ll keep you posted on the outcome

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 21, 2023, 01:11:53 am
Perfect I like this method, I’ll get on to this later today.
Please send me the link.
Thanks again!
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on November 21, 2023, 12:09:23 am
Here is a draft representation:

Dear Ashford Borough Council,

I challenge liability on the basis of the decision in Branislav Baca v Portsmouth City Council (PO00033-2309, 17 November 2023) which you can access at LINK.

In light of that, the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1HLgXkoFeKSPDT1k09A_jPyaybFvP98ac) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 20, 2023, 01:24:12 am
Here is the back of the PCN

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 20, 2023, 01:19:11 am
@Incandescent
Quote
They are actually double-yellow lines,
May I respectfully disagree?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=3362;image
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

both show SYL.

Agreed SYL in this section.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 20, 2023, 01:17:18 am
That leaves 'legitimate expectation'.

According to
https://www.patrol-uk.info/authority_details/?pcn=KF&type=parking

Ashford should re-offer the discount if challenge is made (received by Council?) within the discount period.
Quote

If you make your informal challenge within 14 days of receiving the penalty you should still be able to pay the 50% discounted penalty charge if your challenge is refused.

Back of PCN may confirm.

If you decide to challenge, please to post your draft challenge here for commewnt before submitting.

Yes please I’m definitely going to give this one a go. I’ll post a picture of the rear of the PCN.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: cp8759 on November 20, 2023, 12:23:17 am
This image shows why the PCN was issued:

(https://i.imgur.com/oDCKxvk.jpg)

Clearly the CEO took the view that whatever the status of the land further back might be, the front of your car was parked on the highway (the pavement and any vehicle crossovers are still part of the highway).

One obvious ground is that the timings on the PCN are all wrong, time periods run from the date of the contravention and not the date of service of the PCN. Please post up the back of the PCN, as that may reveal further issues.

For the avoidance of doubt, you should proceed on the basis that they won't make the same mistake as last time.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: John U.K. on November 19, 2023, 11:36:53 am
That leaves 'legitimate expectation'.

According to
https://www.patrol-uk.info/authority_details/?pcn=KF&type=parking

Ashford should re-offer the discount if challenge is made (received by Council?) within the discount period.
Quote

If you make your informal challenge within 14 days of receiving the penalty you should still be able to pay the 50% discounted penalty charge if your challenge is refused.

Back of PCN may confirm.

If you decide to challenge, please to post your draft challenge here for commewnt before submitting.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: Incandescent on November 19, 2023, 11:20:37 am
I suspect the OP, like so many before him, was not aware that yellow lines cover the whole road from its centre line to the property line and include verges and footways, and also driveways that pass over them, not just the carriageway.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: H C Andersen on November 19, 2023, 11:03:30 am
Which is correct but unfortunately for the OP somewhat academic as Apr 2023 GSV shows a no waiting traffic sign (Mon-Fri 8-6pm) slightly beyond where there were parked.

The OP didn't look for this because they thought they'd found an oasis of free parking. But sadly not.

Paying and chalking up to experience are probably the optimum outcomes.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: Incandescent on November 19, 2023, 10:51:35 am
@Incandescent
Quote
They are actually double-yellow lines,
May I respectfully disagree?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=3362;image
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

both show SYL.
Sorry, yes, you're right. However, further along I did see what looked like a faded second line.
And here is the restrictions sign.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ZbnDMofkBoCYFQG6
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: John U.K. on November 19, 2023, 09:52:06 am
@Incandescent
Quote
They are actually double-yellow lines,
May I respectfully disagree?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=3362;image
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

both show SYL.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: Incandescent on November 19, 2023, 09:23:08 am
They are actually double-yellow lines, so apply 24x7, and the cars seem to be parked on the driveway leading into the building and blocking the driveway. DYLs cover the whole road including footways and verges not just the carriageway. A driveway crossing a footway is also included. It seems to me that the OP is bang-to-rights, but could submit reps on the basis of legitimate expectation.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: John U.K. on November 19, 2023, 08:11:51 am
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

Presumably in a CPZ, but I can't find any map on Ashford's website.

If in a CPZ, please give us the operating times for it (should be on a sign where you entered the zone.

SYLs govern pavements, verges etc., but it looks as if you may have 'legitimate expectation.

Please post the back of the PCN (mistakes often in the 'small print') and any council photos.

----
EDIT
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Ashford/AS23.pdf
and
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Ashford/2020-CONSOLIDATION-ORDER-SEALED.pdf

would seem to indicate the SYL is 8am-6pm.

If it is not in a CPZ there should be an upright sign.
Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 19, 2023, 07:43:41 am
I even checked there the next day when I was passing at 5:30pm to see if they’re starting to continuously pcn vehicles but nothing.

There is the train station a short walk away so a lot of people use this spot for skipping the £6.20+ a day fare at the near by ABCouncil parking lots.

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Title: Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 19, 2023, 07:38:46 am
I checked the other vehicles for pcn’s but nothing was issued.

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Title: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
Post by: D D on November 19, 2023, 07:34:39 am
Hello,

I have been parking outside this old derelict building for a few months now mainly more in front of it without any issues, there is an old private land parking notice sign (further down from where I was parked when this pcn was issued) but no council signage to be seen anywhere. This was one a night club that shut down before the covid pandemic.

To my knowledge this part where I was parked looks like a loading bay/area of the old building and not the highway.

I returned to my car after being there all day at 5:25pm to a pcn on the window, all the other vehicles where there all day also but nothing on their vehicles.

Here’s a link to the location to clearly see it in street view a loading bridge can been seen that links to this area.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/eZCV9cVw9B8Ajjbz8?g_st=ic

Personally i think the warden is trying his luck here, what’s your opinion on this PCN and recommendation on the challenge?

Many thanks

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