Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: dk007 on November 19, 2023, 12:15:08 am
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For posterity: The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Civil Enforcement Area) Order 2008 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1M3Y6vPLQQgLf39zcCarbobpbiMEVmLZZ).
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Received this from the council:
The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2008 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1cqV1NiwC8PpaujWj1YX3ATE45fyu4tm5)
The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 154) Order 2016 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1DEKJ3O5IxjoAksSeC1va9qCfuQRH6TWl)
The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 187) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1QnSzqqK5y_Dti4zuJ3B3l2ywEspBduTr)
The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 281) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1-yLzF4sEC9V3g58tyqZY93dTf8kAdeko)
The London Borough of Hounslow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 323) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=11SCix2RVCzIqtYX-grVgV3aGARKe6k3m)
Gone back for the principal order.
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Tribunal decision 2230448785, a Hounslow PCN, follows:
Mr Dishman., who appeared for the Appellant takes a number of points as set out in his skeleton argument. Of these two seem to me to be persuasive.
He submits that the wording on the sign in which the Appellant’s vehicle was parked does not match that provided for in the relevant Traffic Management Order. The former contains no references to the inclusion of business permits, or the exclusion of bank holidays and adds a reference to a No Return period that does not appear in the TMO. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016provides that this and many other signs s must only be placed to indicate the effect of an order etc. As the sign does not correctly reflect the effect of the TMO it is non-compliant.
Mr Dishman also submits that the wording on the PCN is incorrect. It seems to me he is right. Schedule 2 Para 2 (d) The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 provides that a PCN issued under Regulation 9 must state “that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred”. The PCN in the present case states that it must be paid within 28 days of the date on which this Penalty Charge Notice was served. Although the two dates will of course often be the same, as the PCN in this case does not state what it is required to state it too is non compliant and no penalty could be demanded on the basis of it.
The Appeal is allowed on both these grounds. In the circumstances it is unnecessary to come to a view on the other points raised by Mr Dishman.
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@MrM, this is a parking PCN whose wording seems pretty standard i.e. 'beginning with date on which...' in every case.
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Thanks, I will email you.
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Route ro enter the place is attached here, highlighted in black.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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There is a glaring flaw in the Pcn on which I have won twice at London tribunals and CP8759 has at TPT. The 28 days should be from the date of the alleged contravention the council not having noticed the wording change in may 22. It does not matter that the two dates are nearly always the same.
I can do all the writing on this. Email me at mrmustard@zoho.com
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OP, let's be clear.
By your account:
We were there to drop off food for our elderly relatives, were there for may be about 10 minutes,
The PCN was served at 14.35 with the time of contravention given as 14.34, this having followed an observation period of 7 minutes from 14.27. The photos show the PCN having been served and a third party having removed this.
The evidence is therefore that you were away from the car at least for the whole of the period 14.27 until 14.35. IMO, this would scupper any defence you might have had regarding 'unloading' as in 'drop off food for elderly relatives'. Had anyone returned to the car before 14.35 then you would have said so and would rebase and undermine your claim that obs only lasted for 1 minute.
So, you're now left with either showing that as the driver entered the zone the CPZ signs did not meet the required standard e.g. missing, misorientated etc, or that the time of contravention is incorrect ' The clock on the CCTV is about 21 minutes behind.'. If you also want to argue that there was not a sufficient obs period then you would have to disprove the CEO's account i.e. notebook entries, handheld computer log, photos and PCN. I doubt there's any mileage in this line of enquiry.
I suppose there's always prospective procedural impropriety, but unless there's a glaring flaw in the PCN nothing short of a c****d-up NOR would assist at which point the full penalty would likely be in play.
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Hi, you are right, it is a little bit away from the driveway or dropped kerb. Driveway already had cars on it so we could not put it there. We were there to drop off food for our elderly relatives, were there for may be about 10 minutes, we saw the enforcement officer and ran straight away to speak to him but he was not ready to not put the PCN.
As you can see in the footage, he did not even observe for a minute and straight away put the PCN. The clock on the CCTV is about 21 minutes behind.
I will attach the route taken to enter the place and cctv footage.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have received this PCN for putting the car on my relative's driveway for couple of minutes, although it mentions that he observed it for 7 minutes but he did not observe even for a minute, we saw it in the cctv footage later.
Well the council photos do not show a car on a driveway:
(https://i.imgur.com/CQzT4dX.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/HcObYgS.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oNMTKoK.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZHL3dpy.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/QFGTnsz.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/m0QeQAR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/B6pgZYZ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oh7PV1M.png)
Can you please give us the full timeline of events?
Also, please post this CCTV footage you speak of.
Lastly, please tell us exactly what route you took to get here, we need to know exactly where you entered the controoled parking zone. A map of the Hounslow CPZs is available here (https://hounslow.statmap.co.uk/map/Aurora.svc/run?script=%5CAurora%5CControlled%20Parking%20Zones.AuroraScript%24&nocache=6ac8f701-6b55-5f9e-2c03-28b892250166&resize=always).
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Every Council photo shows the car fully on a carriageway regulated by a SYL having been served with a PCN.
If the OP has photos of the car elsewhere, then it must be because it was moved subsequently.
Several of the photos show a third party next to the car. OP?
As regards the evidence to date, if the SYL was in force and correctly signed then the contravention looks to have been established.
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Yes, it was a single yellow line on the dropped kerb to their driveway. I will check images and post.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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OK. You say you parked on your relative's driveway for a few minutes, but the PCN is for parking on a restricted street during the restricted period. So where was the car exactly ? The PCN will be for parking on a single or double yellow line.
There may well be photos taken by the CEO, so if you can get these off their website and post them here it would greatly help to see if you have a case or are 'bang-to-rights'.
It would also help of you can post a GSV link to the location telling us exactly where the car was parked.
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Done
this PCN
Please post it up, all sides. Leave everything in unless there is a name and address on it.
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this PCN
Please post it up, all sides. Leave everything in unless there is a name and address on it.
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Hello Experts,
I have received this PCN for putting the car on my relative's driveway for couple of minutes, although it mentions that he observed it for 7 minutes but he did not observe even for a minute, we saw it in the cctv footage later.
Please could someone advise.
Thanks
(https://i.imgur.com/q8Y5yg0.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/TEGilq8.png)
[attachment deleted by admin]