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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: kno on June 26, 2023, 12:30:48 pm

Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on August 05, 2023, 07:46:54 pm
Quote from: kno on August 04, 2023, 10:23:15 pm
I have received comms from Tribunal that hearing date is set on Sep 9th at 10 am.

Question on the following
Quote
If you would prefer to take part in the above hearing by telephone, please email LT.Reception@londontribunals.gov.uk by return, providing your telephone number and the telephone number of your representative, or any witness you are calling. Please quote your case reference number in the email subject. Please do not use this e-mail address for any other queries.

As I had already requested a telephone hearing on the form, can I reply back as instructed above, as an additional step?
They obviously missed that bit of the form and put it down as a face to face hearing, so you need to email that mailbox to change it to telephone.


Quote from: kno on August 04, 2023, 10:23:15 pm
@cp8759, I saw from another post you were able to find out the camera specs from council/TFL. How do I do that in my case?
The camera does not need to be approved at all under this legislation, so you could find out but it would be pointless. They don't even need a camera, for some contraventions under this Act the authority just gets a CEO to write down your number plate and that's it.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on August 04, 2023, 10:23:15 pm
I have received comms from Tribunal that hearing date is set on Sep 9th at 10 am.

Question on the following
Quote
If you would prefer to take part in the above hearing by telephone, please email LT.Reception@londontribunals.gov.uk by return, providing your telephone number and the telephone number of your representative, or any witness you are calling. Please quote your case reference number in the email subject. Please do not use this e-mail address for any other queries.

As I had already requested a telephone hearing on the form, can I reply back as instructed above, as an additional step?

I will update once I see the evidence from TFL.

@cp8759, I saw from another post you were able to find out the camera specs from council/TFL. How do I do that in my case?
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on August 01, 2023, 12:39:19 am
As long as they've got the form you're on safe ground.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 31, 2023, 01:15:41 pm
Called up the Tribunal today. They confirmed the receipt of my email with the form, but processing is still pending. They advised me to wait for a couple more days, but if I do not hear from them by end-of-week, then to call them on Friday the 4th of Aug.


I did ask them if they can generate a case on the call; they said they cannot. I will update here once I hear from them.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on July 30, 2023, 01:39:21 am
Quote from: kno on July 29, 2023, 10:13:36 pm
To Tribunals - queries@londontribunals.org.uk with the form
Have you had a case reference from the tribunal?

If not, call them on Monday and ask. If the form has not been processed yet, you can ask them there and then to raise a task for case management, and it'll then get processed on Monday and you'll get the hearing scheduling letter on Tuesday, providing the comms preference on the case is set to email (again you can confirm this when you call the tribunal).
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 29, 2023, 10:13:36 pm
To Tribunals -    queries@londontribunals.org.uk with the form
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: Pastmybest on July 29, 2023, 08:56:43 pm
did you send your appeal to London tribunals or TfL
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 29, 2023, 04:43:07 pm
I have submitted my filled-up form to London Adjudicators as per advice from cp8759. TFL status shows as below.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SUl024qsXtuQzVddN3R5MwkV4wG_gjPe/view?usp=drive_link
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: Pastmybest on July 27, 2023, 12:55:25 pm
follow CP's advice i will look up more case that concern turning right if you were just following the road there would not be a junction would there so that argument is easy to dispel 
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 09:34:39 pm
Your deadline to appeal is 9 August, no idea why you think you're late?

Anyway as a general rule we recommend just putting "I rely on my formal representations", tick the box to request a personal hearing and wait to see TFL's evidence pack. Once that's been received, you can flesh out the full grounds later on.

There is simply no reason to show your hand first.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 25, 2023, 08:52:18 pm
While I was filling up the form, I remembered that it was difficult/challenging to see the end of the box junction from the 3rd lane. Additionally, if you see the video, the sun visor was down due to the direct sunlight hitting the windshield. It was really very difficult to gauge the distance and the line that day.


Can I put this reason along with the right-hand turn justification I gave earlier? Like - 1) Visibility (with evidence) 2) Right hand turn/vehicular movement 3) Flawed junction as seen in the video as almost everyone stopped ?


I intend to visit the signal/junction around the same time this week (possibly Saturday), and take additional photos and videos from the same place where the car was snapped. Both in driving and stationary modes. Would this help? If yes, can I attach the videos and photos along with the appeal to the email address?


Also, Is my appeal late? Do I need to justify that I didn't receive the postal letter, and the mail went to SPAM/JUNK box?
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 09:57:25 pm
If you want to appeal, just fill out the Notice of Appeal form and email it to queries@londontribunals.org.uk

We recommend you tick the box for a personal hearing, and also the box in section 7 requesting that all communications come to you by email. In the covering email you can also specify you want a telephone hearing, if you'd rather not go to the hearing centre in person.

If the form isn't editable, you can use https://www.sejda.com/pdf-editor to edit it.

Do not send the form by post, it will just delay things and it adds the risk that the form might get lost in the post.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 24, 2023, 05:41:03 pm
Called up TFL today. Their additional postal letter will take another 14 days, but would not increase the duration. When I asked how they are sending the letter (signed & tracked like the video evidence), they said the letters are sent via regular mail. They did not provide a reason behind sending mails by different ways (read, speed and tracking) based on the content. The call center person read me the letter over the phone, and when I asked how do I make a legal decision based on this, they were insistent that the readout works. I heard it over the phone, and left the conversation there.


BTW, The last date is today for the reduced penalty.


Since they asked me to take a look at SPAM/JUNK folder, I did and found it after a lot of struggle.


Link to rejection letter - https://drive.google.com/file/d/11vmyK_lQfNW2Cq-g2Dzl7JoL2d_jBKy0/view?usp=drive_link


I want to take this to the adjudicators, if that is the next step. How do I proceed?

Or, Is there anything else which I am missing?
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on July 20, 2023, 10:44:46 pm
Well you now need to make a decision about whether you want to risk the full penalty at the tribunal. Also wait and see what PMB says.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on July 20, 2023, 07:00:07 pm
@John U.K.
Attaching the junction pic representation to the best of my abilities. Not sure if this is a T-junction or not.

[attach=1]


Update

I see that TFL has rejected the representation, dated 11th July on the website. I am yet to receive a physical letter.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


11 July 2023


Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset

TfL has rejected a representation received for this PCN. The discount period has been reset for a specific duration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do I need to wait for some more time, given its been around 9 days?



Their communication methods are odd. They sent the video footage through signed tracked mail, but the initial notice, and perhaps the other letter would come in as ordinary letters/mails.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on June 28, 2023, 04:10:39 pm
It is certainly arguable but the odds are fairly evenly split IMO.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: Pastmybest on June 27, 2023, 01:24:29 pm
By 17.35 Mr. Mollanaghi had not attended and there had been no application for an adjournment. I proceeded to deal with the matter on the basis of the notice of appeal, the enforcement authority (EA)’s case summary and all the material, evidence and representations submitted by both parties.

Mr. Mollanaghi appeals against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued in respect of an alleged contravention of the requirements of a ‘box junction’, as defined in paragraph 11(1) of Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Paragraph 11 goes on to say:

“(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who

(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or [my emphasis] other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.”

There is no doubt on the evidence that Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle entered the box junction and stopped within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. On the face of it, therefore, the alleged contravention is proved. But that is not the end of the matter.

Mr. Mollanaghi applies on the above sub-paragraph, (3). There does not appear to be a dispute – and I would in any event have decided – that the junction is one to which sub-paragraph 6(a) applies because it is a junction between two or more roads.

What Mr. Mollanaghi was doing at that junction was, self-evidently, turning right, and he entered the box junction for the purpose of doing so. There could not be any dispute about that. Sub-paragraph (3)(a) is therefore satisfied.

The EA asserts that nonetheless the exemption does apply because sub-paragraph 3(b) does not apply. That is because, the EA submits, there were no ‘oncoming’ vehicles. That is indeed correct as a statement of fact. However, as subsection (3)(b) makes clear, the presence of oncoming vehicles or, respectively, of vehicles which are stationary whilst completing right turns, are alternatives. It follows that it is not necessary, for sub-paragraph (3) to apply, for there to be oncoming vehicles.

I turn then to consider whether, on the evidence, sub-paragraph 3(b) applies. I looked carefully at the position of the vehicle ahead of Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point the two vehicles were stationary. I find that neither Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle nor the car in front of it had completed their respective right turns. The vehicle ahead had not yet fully lined up with the carriageway and was still in the process of turning right when it came to a halt. Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle was only stationary behind the vehicle ahead whilst that other vehicle was stationary in the position I have described, waiting to complete its own right turn. Accordingly, I find that sub-paragraph (3)(b) applies with the effect that sub-paragraph (3) as a whole applies and the contravention is not proved.

Rather the contravening vehicle in this case is that vehicle ahead of Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle. Whilst that vehicle was turning right at the point it was stationary, the vehicle ahead of it was not and had completed its right turn. Therefore, whilst sub-paragraph 3(b) applies to Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle it does not apply to the vehicle in front of his.


The above is a case heard by Jack Walsh re turning right at a Tee junction 2190001784

Given the positioning of the car in front and that of the OP it seems to me to fit perfectly
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: John U.K. on June 27, 2023, 07:12:10 am
Quote from: MrChips on June 26, 2023, 10:53:07 pm
Doesn't need to be any oncoming traffic.  It's sufficient to be waiting behind another vehicle which is also stationary while waiting to complete a right turn.

IIRC, it was ruled that at the infamous Bagley's Lane/New Kings Road box T-junction in Fulham, the right turn argument could not be used turning right from Bagley's Lane (the upright of the 'T') into New Kings Rd, as being a T-junction, there could not be oncoming traffic.
Is the present case not also a T-junction?
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2023, 11:07:57 pm
Quote from: MrChips on June 26, 2023, 10:53:07 pm
Doesn't need to be any oncoming traffic.  It's sufficient to be waiting behind another vehicle which is also stationary while waiting to complete a right turn.
Yes that is arguable, but the counter-argument is that applying a purposive interpretation there must be at least one vehicle that has its progress impeded by oncoming traffic. So there is an element of risk.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: MrChips on June 26, 2023, 10:53:07 pm
Doesn't need to be any oncoming traffic.  It's sufficient to be waiting behind another vehicle which is also stationary while waiting to complete a right turn.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2023, 09:33:50 pm
Quote from: MrChips on June 26, 2023, 06:47:19 pm
This case is also running on Pepipoo where we've indicated the turning right exemption should save the day.
From where the OP was coming, there's no oncoming traffic?
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: MrChips on June 26, 2023, 06:47:19 pm
This case is also running on Pepipoo where we've indicated the turning right exemption should save the day.
Title: Re: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2023, 01:20:37 pm
There's an argument that the car ahead of you stopped well short of where it could have stopped, and this was an unexpected / unpredictable event. However TFL will argue that unless you can see there is a clear exit ahead, you should not enter the box in the first place.

You'd have to take this to London Tribunals with the full penalty in play in order to get this cancelled, you're unlikely to have much luck with TFL so you have to decide whether it's worth risking the full amount.
Title: TFL PCN - Bath Rd_Great West Rd
Post by: kno on June 26, 2023, 12:30:48 pm
Hello Everyone,

I received a PCN from TFL for entering a box junction under contravention 31. I know I should have been more careful, but being a new driver, I am still learning the intricacies of driving at complex junctions with neck-to-neck traffic. Paying £80 as a fine to me seems quite steep, at least for the first time.

This is located at bath road/great west road junction - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4751137,-0.3935809,3a,75y,243.37h,75.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq62NeHu8YsoBGtf913h5-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu


Video from TFL - I do not know how to cut the video at this time, but my car CX62 TXM is at the box at 2:30 mark - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1td4_FI9SM8HfnlY4nxHs2RwaopL2oR2C/view?usp=sharing



TFL PCN letters/notice are here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YNPoJYkTXlVQrW2n7rhlt3VZ4Hus6o93?usp=sharing


Asking for your expert opinions in case there is leeway. Thank you.