Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Toba on November 18, 2023, 12:13:28 pm
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Hello guys.
I have come back to say thank you. I received a letter as confirmation that my representation has been accepted and the penalty charge canceled. I so much appreciate your efforts.
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Your representation gets the key points in, so send it off and let's see what they say.
The key point is that the entry into the box is missing from the video, so the council's case falls flat on its face. They have no idea when you entered the box, no idea at all.
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You can't wait for ever, so submit them. Councils reject about 99% of all representations, thus forcing you to cough-up, or take them to adjudication. To 'encourage' you to pay up, it is likely they will re-offer the discount. Then you will have to take a decision. You're already in for £65; going to adjudication doubles that but if you win you pay nil, and the council get no money.
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Hello all. Do I count the silence as go ahead to submit the representation?
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Edit as suggested by @Incandescent
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN AF97908565
As the registered keeper of the vehicle,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds "the contravention did not occur".
First, the video available on your website does not show my vehicle entering a yellow box junction, and the contravention occurs at the point of entry, so this essential element of the contravention is lacking. Without evidence of the situation at that point in time, it is impossible to understand what the situation was before which caused my vehicle to enter the box junction.
I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is a very long road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location
I also note that the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction between the two roads. Therefore the council cannot enforce this PCN because a YBJ only has effect in the area covered by the junction of the roads
Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.
In summary, from the footage provided, it is clear that no contravention has occurred and I look forward to you cancelling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
is this okay to be submitted as my representation? I need your input guys. Thanks
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Edit as suggested by @Incandescent
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN AF97908565
As the registered keeper of the vehicle,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds "the contravention did not occur".
First, the video available on your website does not show my vehicle entering a yellow box junction, and the contravention occurs at the point of entry, so this essential element of the contravention is lacking. Without evidence of the situation at that point in time, it is impossible to understand what the situation was before which caused my vehicle to enter the box junction.
I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is a very long road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location
I also note that the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction between the two roads. Therefore the council cannot enforce this PCN because a YBJ only has effect in the area covered by the junction of the roads
Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.
In summary, from the footage provided, it is clear that no contravention has occurred and I look forward to you cancelling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
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I would be tempted by be more forthright and assertive.
your input is much appreciated. Thanks
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I just edited your reps a bit
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN AF97908565
Thank you for sending me the PCN referenced above. I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and I drove this car this same day.
As the registered keeper of the vehicle, According to the evidence provided in the PCN and the video footage supplied via your website,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds "the contravention did not occur".
First, the video available on your website does not show my vehicle entering a yellow box junction, and the contravention occurs at the point of entry, so this essential element of the contravention is lacking. Without evidence of the situation at that point in time, it is impossible to understand what the situation was before which caused my vehicle to enter the box junction.
I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is quite a verylong road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location
I also note that the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction between the two roads. Therefore the council cannot enforce this PCN because a YBJ only has effect in the area covered by the junction of the roads
Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.
In summary, from the footage provided, it is far from clear that any no contravention has occurred and I look forward to you cancelling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
Thank you for your edits. i appreciate
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I just edited your reps a bit
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN AF97908565
Thank you for sending me the PCN referenced above. I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and I drove this car this same day.
As the registered keeper of the vehicle, According to the evidence provided in the PCN and the video footage supplied via your website,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds "the contravention did not occur".
First, the video available on your website does not show my vehicle entering a yellow box junction, and the contravention occurs at the point of entry, so this essential element of the contravention is lacking. Without evidence of the situation at that point in time, it is impossible to understand what the situation was before which caused my vehicle to enter the box junction.
I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is quite a verylong road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location
I also note that the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction between the two roads. Therefore the council cannot enforce this PCN because a YBJ only has effect in the area covered by the junction of the roads
Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.
In summary, from the footage provided, it is far from clear that any no contravention has occurred and I look forward to you cancelling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
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I would be tempted by be more forthright and assertive.
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Hi All
this is my draft, I would appreciate your feedback. Thanks
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
Re PCN AF97908565
Thank you for sending me the PCN referenced above. I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and I drove this car this same day.
According to the evidence provided in the PCN and the video footage supplied via your website,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds the contravention did not occur.
First, the video available on your website does not show my vehicle entering a yellow box junction, and the contravention occurs at the point of entry, so this essential element of the contravention is lacking. Without evidence of the situation at that point in time, it is impossible to understand what the situation was before which caused my vehicle to enter the box junction.
I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is quite a long road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location
Also, note the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction'.
Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.
In summary, from the footage provided, it is far from clear that any contravention has occurred and I look forward to you canceling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
Yours faithfully,
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Just remember: all points should be properly considered by the council. Though some adjudicators disagree!
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Excellent advice. Post up a draft in your own words for positive perusal. I have an idea re the TWOC ground too: taken without consent.
Thanks. I will come up with this shortly
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You were turning right but not out of the box as is the usual interpretation of the exemption
Turning right further on has one in the past but only once as a know
2160158062
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited.
The Appellant's case is that he stopped for the purposes of turning right.
I have viewed the camera evidence.
Although the right hand filter is ahead of the junction it is clear from the evidence that the appellant's vehicle does stop for the purposes of turning right and is prevented from completing the manoeuvre by other vehicles also waiting to complete the right turn as shown by their indicator lights and the fact that the vehicles are waiting in a right hand filter lane.
I am therefore not satisfied that the contravention did occur and allow this appeal.
A stronger point is that there is no evidence of you entering the box this has won many times
This is one of many on the ground
2160389724
The evidence does not show the appellant’s vehicle “enter” the box junction. I am unable to decide therefore whether the driver caused the vehicle to enter the box and subsequently stopped due to the presence of other vehicles. The evidence shows that vehicle already entered the box junction. I do not know what the position was when the appellant caused his vehicle to enter the box junction.
I will therefore allow the appeal.
That the reasons have been allowed in the past is not a guarantee that you would win and you would have to take both arguments to the tribunal as the council will reject them so the full penalty would be in play
Thank you so much for this. i will come up with a draft shortly
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Excellent advice. Post up a draft in your own words for positive perusal. I have an idea re the TWOC ground too: taken without consent.
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You were turning right but not out of the box as is the usual interpretation of the exemption
Turning right further on has one in the past but only once as a know
2160158062
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited.
The Appellant's case is that he stopped for the purposes of turning right.
I have viewed the camera evidence.
Although the right hand filter is ahead of the junction it is clear from the evidence that the appellant's vehicle does stop for the purposes of turning right and is prevented from completing the manoeuvre by other vehicles also waiting to complete the right turn as shown by their indicator lights and the fact that the vehicles are waiting in a right hand filter lane.
I am therefore not satisfied that the contravention did occur and allow this appeal.
A stronger point is that there is no evidence of you entering the box this has won many times
This is one of many on the ground
2160389724
The evidence does not show the appellant’s vehicle “enter” the box junction. I am unable to decide therefore whether the driver caused the vehicle to enter the box and subsequently stopped due to the presence of other vehicles. The evidence shows that vehicle already entered the box junction. I do not know what the position was when the appellant caused his vehicle to enter the box junction.
I will therefore allow the appeal.
That the reasons have been allowed in the past is not a guarantee that you would win and you would have to take both arguments to the tribunal as the council will reject them so the full penalty would be in play
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Hi Folks,
I received this PCN on November 15th and I was shocked when I checked the video, I indicated turning right and there were oncoming cars and a series of cars in front waiting to also turn right so I had to slow down a bit and stop cos I knew I could stop on a yellow box when turning right if there were oncoming vehicles or cars waiting to also turn right plus I was not obstructing another oncoming vehicle.
so I don’t understand this PCN
Is there any advice or grounds for appeal? I have attached a link to the PCN jpegs and video below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17mPhpzWdKYptrT3NUAnyuPUP22zRRRiO/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18Jb4ZIo5HQnyXv_IaXTB_gYZx_uKM99T/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18O-uL532HCWlpoZ4j0JV2K_JxQUfQ722/view?usp=sharing