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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sudokuqueen on November 17, 2023, 07:33:57 pm

Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on February 11, 2024, 01:58:37 pm
Thinking of costs. He had made his mind up already.  Just as well, as I had practically no voice!  Very pleased to say this is the 2nd one we have won this week, the other being a Bus Lane they DNCed.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bromley-code-34j-being-in-a-bus-lane-widmore-road/
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on February 11, 2024, 01:32:59 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XdV0Z3MNrFFdUnrv04G_WngsMj-jSgKu/view).
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on February 07, 2024, 11:59:26 am
Happy Days.   :) Won on both points.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on February 05, 2024, 01:38:30 pm
Thanks cp.

Case Details
Case reference
2230446994

Appellant Commercial Plant Services Ltd
Authority London Borough of Bexley
VRM WX69 ZDE

PCN Details

PCN XL96297665
Contravention
date

04 Aug 2023

Contravention
time

07:33:00

Contravention
location

Bexley High Street

Penalty
amount

GBP 130.00

Contravention Fail comply prohibition on certain types vehicle
Referral date
Decision Date 13 Dec 2023
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Appeal
decision

Appeal allowed

Back

Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
I heard this appeal by telephone speaking to the Appellants’ representative Mr Murray Smith.

I have considered the detailed submissions set out in his skeleton argument and the Council’s response.

I do not agree with Mr Murray Smith’s submission that the Council could not have reason to believe that the vehicle exceeded the weight limit until it had obtained details from the DVLA. The vehicle is clearly a very sizeable HGV and has every appearance of exceeding the limit-which in my view amounts to a good reason to believe that it does so.

However It seems to me that his submission that the PCN is defective is based on firmer ground. The PCN does indeed state that “any representations received by this authority outside the 28-day period mentioned above may be disregarded”. The 28-day period mentioned above is 28 days from the date of the notice; however the period required to be stated (under the terms of Schedule 1 Para 3 London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003) is 28 days from the date of service of the Notice. The wording used by the Council truncates the time allowed for making representations by two days. It is a well- known problem arising from the poor drafting of the legislation that whereas a Charge Certificate can in theory be issued after the expiry of 28 days from the date of the notice, a motorist has 28 days from the date of service of the notice during which representations must be considered. However cannot avoid the problem by stating anything other than what the legislation specifically requires. As the PCN in the present case is non-compliant np penalty may be demanded on the basis of it.

The Appeal is allowed for this reason and I do not feel it necessary to come to a decision on the other issues raised on behalf of the Appellants.

Authority
Response

I certify this to be a true copy of an entry in the register
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on February 05, 2024, 09:01:42 am
@cp8759 :  do we have any cases in  support of the 28 days issue please?
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on December 28, 2023, 07:28:23 pm
Thanks cp.  Might catch up with you on the 2nd by way of listening in!  I have one at midday.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on December 28, 2023, 06:13:17 pm
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)
@Hippocrates I don't mind if you want to take this one, I'm struggling with capacity at the moment. I'm supposedly on holiday but I seem to have 17 hearings to prepare for next week, including 8 hearings the first day the tribunal reopens on the 2nd.

@Sudokuqueen please re-post the PCN using imgur.com instead of https://imgbb.com/ as the latter deletes all the images after a few days.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on December 28, 2023, 12:17:26 pm
1. Go online using the code to register the appeal
2. Choose: contravention did not occur
3. I rely upon my formal representations and will make full submissions upon receipt of the council’s evidence pack
4. Choose personal hearing after 11.00 a.m.*
5. Communication by e mail

*If I am representing you as I go in person.  You can attend by phone. My tactics are that I like to join in the game later so authorisation can be given at such time.  Others do it differently but it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Sudokuqueen on December 28, 2023, 10:39:16 am
Thanks - what do I need to do for a tribunal, and how do I prepare?
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on December 27, 2023, 07:42:09 pm
Tribunal is the next stage. If you lose, yes £130;  however, we believe you should have every chance to win.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Sudokuqueen on December 27, 2023, 07:33:54 pm
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)

Hi - thanks for the reply, what does represent mean?

Is my next stage the adjudicator? And if that fails I have to pay the full £130?
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on December 24, 2023, 06:32:05 pm
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Sudokuqueen on December 23, 2023, 05:42:34 pm
Sorry - it's 22nd Dec 2023
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: John U.K. on December 23, 2023, 04:41:42 pm
You've chopped off the date of the Notice?
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Sudokuqueen on December 23, 2023, 04:34:28 pm
Hi - I just had a reply, rejecting my appeal on the grounds of incorrect location and the incorrect disregard period statement.

Now, I was quite happy to pay but I am now cross that they just ignore the fact that they got some information wrong. I feel that if they have the power to issue penalty charges then they should apply consistent rules and ensure they are also adhering to the requirements.

(https://i.ibb.co/KLMYPNB/IMG-3177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D8xNJGm)

(https://i.ibb.co/Xt3J8vs/IMG-3178.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5LncFf8)
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: bestfootie on December 07, 2023, 12:37:57 am
What happened with this?
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 20, 2023, 12:50:11 am
The location shown in the video is the one circled in blue, you can tell from the presence of the zig-zag markings.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: MrChips on November 19, 2023, 04:39:29 pm
Just to check my understanding - the OP's video is from the red circled box in the aerial photo.  The case sited is the blue one.

The same logic applies re phantom location, but unless I mistaken (which I may be) I think your draft implies it's the other way round.
Title: Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 03:46:19 pm
There are two boxes and they're not that far from each other:

(https://i.imgur.com/DynRGtR.png)

The suggestion that Bromley Police Station is in Kent is without foundation, I know that some people in the outer borough think that they're in the neighboring county, but they're not. In fact Bromley Police station is in the north of the borough, and it's closer to the border with Lewisham than the border with Kent.

Here is a revised draft:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

Firstly the alleged contravention did not occur, because there is no such location as High Street Bromley South, Bromley Police Station is located on High Street Bromley, but that is not the location of the alleged contravention in any event.

The location shown in the video is the junction between High Street and the unnamed access road to the Waitrose supermarket car park, which is not the location stated on the penalty charge notice.

Furthermore, the penalty charge notice is defective in any event. This is because the penalty charge wrongly states that the authority may disregard representations made later than 28 days from the date of the notice, rather than 28 days from the date of service of the notice. The authority is not permitted to cut short the period for making representations in this way.

In light of the above the penalty charge notice must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
Post by: Sudokuqueen on November 17, 2023, 07:33:57 pm
Hi. I have posted this on Pepipoo too, and have had some advice about the location name being incorrect. Apparently also the disregard period is not correct. I would appreciate any help in drafting an appeal.

The PCN, photos and video are here too!

Thank you very much.

(https://i.ibb.co/x1GnxBQ/Get-Image-aspx.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rxMBDzJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/kxpHYNK/Get-Image-aspx-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6QxSmn)
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5trFfs3ug

Here are the pages from the PCN

(https://i.ibb.co/W3ZB9t2/IMG-2864-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vBpL5Yj)
(https://i.ibb.co/KwpMCwT/IMG-2865.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6xYq6F)

And I was going to write something like this. Although I wonder how to refer to the issue with the disregard period, and I wondered if it's worth quoting another appeal that was allowed for the same issue (incorrect location -

Quote
Hello. Thank you for reviewing my appeal.

The location stated on the penalty charge notice is stated as 'High St Bromley Sth/Police Station'. This location does not exist and therefore the vehicle cannot have been at that location.

I enclose evidence that Bromley Police Station's address is High Street, Bromley, Kent. Which seems to indicate that the box junction in question is actually on the junction of an unnamed access road that leads to Waitrose's Car Park, and High Street.

I cannot find any road in the borough that is called High St Bromley Sth, High Street Bromley South or other variation.

Please see screenshots as evidence.

(https://i.ibb.co/KL8fZqk/Screenshot-2023-11-15-at-20-32-37.png) (https://ibb.co/mXP2sqw)
(https://i.ibb.co/F6Mdf9h/Screenshot-2023-11-15-at-20-29-53.png) (https://ibb.co/qBf24zD)
(https://i.ibb.co/2jsmrSL/Evidence-Map.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fCnBW9K)



Here is the details of the other appeal that was allowed in the same location:

Quote
Case reference 2230349433
Appellant Robert Nye
Authority London Borough of Bromley
VRM EX17 DAY
PCN Details
PCN BY96091825
Contravention date 25 Apr 2023
Contravention time 13:08:00
Contravention location High Street Bromley South
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 22 Aug 2023
Adjudicator Belinda Pearce
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons
The Appellant attended a Personal Appeal Hearing before me today, 22nd July 2023, to explain his contention personally.

1. The Enforcement Authority assert that the said vehicle entered and stopped on a location subject to an operative restriction denoted by yellow cross-hatching, such demarcation indicating a prohibition against a vehicle remaining stationary within the defined area due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

2. The Appellant denies liability for the ensuing Penalty Charge Notice on the basis of the prevailing circumstances and challenges as comprehensively stated in his detailed written representations, which he reiterated at, and supported with photographic capture which he bought to, the Hearing.

3. The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so driven contrary to the operative restriction are obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion:-
The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises the certified copy Penalty Charge Notice together with photographic evidence: CCTV footage and still frames taken there-from revealing the said vehicle in situ and the applicable carriageway markings notifying motorists of the prohibition.
It is incumbent upon a motorist to be acquainted with [by reference to The Highway Code], and comply with, such prohibitions.

4.The prohibition, as set out in The Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions 2016 prohibits vehicles (or parts there-of) from becoming stationary or stopping within the cross-hatched area due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
There is no requirement that the vehicle be causing an obstruction.
There is no minimum period since a vehicle is in contravention immediately it is stationary.
There is no minimum portion of a vehicle since any stationary part thereof is subject to contravention.

5. The contemporaneous photographic capture was examined (repeatedly) to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations and images.

6. The Appellant raised 6 issues in his Notice of Appeal, some of which were addressed by the Enforcement Authority in its Case Summary, and all of which were discussed at the Hearing. Since this is a matter of 'strict liability' although I have considered each of the Appellant's contentions, for the most-part they cannot impact on my determination.
However I register concern on reading the minutes of the Enforcement Authority's meeting of the Environment and Community Services Policy Development and Scrutiny Committee of Wednesday 9th September 2020, bought to my attention by the Appellant, which suggests revenue impacts on the siting of camera enforcement locations.

7. Whilst the evidence substantiates a contravention, I cannot be satisfied that the contravention as alleged in the Penalty Charge Notice is made out. The Appellant's pertinent point contends that the said vehicle was not at the location stated on the Penalty Charge Notice as such location does not exist; to identify the location the Appellant obtained the address of Bromley Police Station and provided Google Earth aerial images of the location which description corresponds with the Police Station address; namely a junction between an un-named access road and High Street, Bromley, Kent.

8. I therefore consulted the Master London Street Atlas and could find no entry for 'High St Bromley Sth.'

On balance, evidentially I cannot be satisfied that this contravention occurred, accordingly I allow this Appeal.