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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Avrumy on November 16, 2023, 05:42:25 pm

Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: cp8759 on February 01, 2024, 04:37:11 pm
@Avrumy they've completely messed things up, as they've sent this silly letter of 26 January in response to your formal representations.

(https://i.imgur.com/c0USqbI.png)

In short, it's now tribunal time and it's hard to see how you could lose this case, I'm going to drop you a PM.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on February 01, 2024, 03:50:29 pm
Dear @cp8759

I received the attached letter today by post.
I appreciate your advice how to continue.

Kind regards
Avrumy

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: H C Andersen on January 07, 2024, 09:28:05 pm

My point was that the OP should revise their grounds to 'penalty exceeded.....' and cite the SoS's guidance and not rely upon their previous grounds. By all means add the tactical device.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: cp8759 on January 07, 2024, 12:59:25 am
Quote from: H C Andersen on January 06, 2024, 10:39:23 am
The tactic of testing whether they consider the full reps is another matter, but I feel that as the OP's case could fail based solely on that decision without being expanded, possibly as above, and is a risk.
A risk up to a point, we'll know when the rejection comes whether they considered the representations or not.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: H C Andersen on January 06, 2024, 10:39:23 am
I don't see the direct relevance of this decision to the OP's case.

In the former, TfL committed a procedural impropriety by not submitting a true copy of the PCN. The appeal was allowed on these grounds. The adjudicator then added:

'..which ought to have been noted as 'Parked longer than permitted'.

Having made that finding [procedural impropriety] I do not need to consider whether the contravention has occurred.'


But he did, 'the contravention was 'Stopped or ....red route'. '

IMO, as the adjudicator did not examine this aspect in depth, their bald statement should be treated with caution and of course those facts don't apply here anyway.

In that case, the driver parked, left and returned and re-parked when not permitted i.e. returned within 2 hours. The PCN was issued in respect of the second parking period. TfL's logical position is that as the TMO does not permit parking for vehicles which have returned within 2 hours the correct contravention is 'stopped red route not permitted'. I could imagine a host of adjudicators agreeing with this position.

In the current case, the OP was parked for more than the maximum period allowed on their first, not second, parking event. Contraventions are not necessarily mutually exclusive and therefore IMO 'stopped on red route..' is a perfectly acceptable contravention, as is parked for longer than permitted, the latter being the concomitant of the former in the context of the facts here.

However, as I understand the SoS's Stat Guidance, the contravention which attracts the lower penalty level should have been used and therefore I believe the grounds should be PI and Penalty Exceeded..etc.

Parking in a place where it is always prohibited (such as on a red route, on double yellow lines or in a disabled bay without displaying a valid badge) is considered more serious than overstaying where parking is permitted (for example, in a parking place).

The use of 'stopped ..red route' is targeted at where 'parking ..is always prohibited' which does not apply here.

The tactic of testing whether they consider the full reps is another matter, but I feel that as the OP's case could fail based solely on that decision without being expanded, possibly as above, and is a risk.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Hippocrates on January 05, 2024, 08:33:47 pm
TFL luvs you cp!
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: cp8759 on January 05, 2024, 03:25:44 pm
Draft reps:

Dear Transport for London,

For the reasons explained at (LINK) the PCN is invalid and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=12SPaJ1PDrUJqIUYiwbNjawwGGJRocVVZ) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on January 05, 2024, 02:07:18 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on December 14, 2023, 04:53:48 pm
Just wait for the notice to owner and let us know once you've got it.

@cp8759

Received the notice to owner today, uploaded here.

Please guide me further.

Thanks a mill in advance for your help, always.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: cp8759 on December 14, 2023, 04:53:48 pm
Just wait for the notice to owner and let us know once you've got it.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on December 14, 2023, 11:45:23 am
Sorry. I forgot to upload it. Here it is.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: John U.K. on December 14, 2023, 11:40:10 am
Quote
I received the attached letter by post, refusing to cancel the PCN.

and the letter??
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on December 14, 2023, 09:35:12 am
Hi
I received the attached letter by post, refusing to cancel the PCN.

@cp8759 , can you please advice how to continue with it?

Kind regards

Avrumy

P.S. I received another PCN, same reason on the same place, can I just appeal it again as advice before?
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Incandescent on November 19, 2023, 05:29:35 pm
The mindboggling intricacies of parking in London never cease to amaze me ! How on earth is the ordinary motorist to keep up to speed on them !
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on November 19, 2023, 04:24:05 pm
Thank you very much @cp8759 .
I appealed as you instructed and will keep you posted.

Kind regards
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 03:01:30 pm
Incandescent the restriction is actually 7 am to 7 pm, there is no restriction at all outside of those hours (confirmed by the white bay markings, which can only be used where stopping is permitted at all times when the red route is in operation.

@Avrumy here you go:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur. Stopping is permitted at this location, it might be that a PCN could have been issued for code 30 "Parked for longer than permitted" but of course that would be a lower level contravention.

I refer you to the tribunal decision in Spencer Weems v Transport for London (2180331206, 22 September 2018).

It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty demanded exceeds the amount duly set by law.

Yours faithfully,

Make representations via the TfL website and make sure to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Incandescent on November 17, 2023, 06:49:46 pm
Sign says No Stopping 7am to 7pm, then outside that parking allowed for one hour.
You look bang-to-rights, frankly.  Did you read the sign ?
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on November 17, 2023, 12:50:27 pm
Hi
I forgot to attached the google view link. Here it is:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/SEbdnyF3sB2BjPWr9

I was parked on the left side. (near the hat shop).

I was parked there over an hour. I am asking if there is any ground I can base my challenge of.

Thank you all very much for your help.

Kind regards
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Incandescent on November 17, 2023, 12:41:04 am
We need to know exactly where you were parked/stopped, because the PCN shows you were there for nearly 2 hours.
Title: Re: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Grant Urismo on November 16, 2023, 07:14:07 pm
Challenging it is easy, there should be instructions on how to do that on the PCN... winning it on the other hand might not be so easy. We need more to go on to provide more useful help. I suggest you start by finding the exact  location on Google Street View and then posting the link here, so we can see what signage there is. Showing us the rest of the PCN would also be good, so we can check for errors.
Title: TFL / Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) / Stamford hill - Hacney
Post by: Avrumy on November 16, 2023, 05:42:25 pm
HI
I received this ticket today, is there any way to challenge it.

Kind regards

[attachment deleted by admin]