Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MRJ on December 31, 2025, 12:16:49 pm
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PM sent.
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Thanks for that.
The text on how to post - suggests to NOT pay the discount - if you are waiting for a response.
So it's a bit of a quandary.
I will hold off and hope to get a response in time.
Though from what you have written it seems like I will likely fail. I appreciate the time you took to respond. Thanks again
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Whilst I recommend submitting reps on the lines you have descibed in your text, do be aware that migitation cannot be considered at the adjudicators, London Tribunals. GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date to show the signs but the council photo show the restriction applies Mon-Fri 7-10-am and 3-7pm and permit holders N1 are exempt.
Frankly, at the moment, I don't see a credible argument to take to London Tribunals, as your case is based on mitigation, but there may be a credible appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process. Such appeals have nothing to do with the allegation, but with the council not following their mandated duties in the law and the regulations. So wait a bit to see what is suggested, but don't miss the discount deadline if you're minded to pay this unless a robust appeal argument is suggested.
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Video and maps didn't seem to work
Maybe they will as links:
VIDEO
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/qDoW6Gl_lg.mp4
MAPS
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kkQHtSP4x5XhQexd8
If these didn't work and you need them - let me know and I will try and work out how to post them.
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Hello,
Thanks in advance for any help or advice.
I am trying to work out whether this is a clear-cut case where we should just pay the reduced penalty quickly, or whether there is any realistic point in challenging it. Even the reduced amount (£80) feels painfully high for us.
I have two questions, and what I am optimistically calling a mitigating circumstance.
Question One
The alleged contravention occurred at 16.08 (4.08pm) on December the 9th. The photos all appear to show daylight conditions. However, sunset that day was around 3.50pm. It may simply be that the camera or form has the wrong time recorded. I realise that even if the time is incorrect, it does not magically make our vehicle allowed to be there, but it did strike me as odd.
Question Two
We are not from the area, so I do not have a realistic way to go and inspect the signage in person. I have searched this forum for the same road but cannot find any existing threads. Does anyone know whether the signage for this camera and location is generally considered good or fair?
Mitigation
Our vehicle is a small van with a roof box; it is the smallest Ford van available. We are touring a theatre show. The van contained myself and the other cast member, who was driving. She is not experienced at driving in this area. It was dark, or rapidly getting dark. Unlike most other days on the tour, this particular day involved solely non-profit performances.
All of these shows took place within the Royal Borough of Greenwich. We had four shows scheduled in the borough on the same day. In practice, the day went badly from the start. We were delayed because the sat nav routed us through the Rotherhithe Tunnel, only for us to discover on arrival that our vehicle was too tall to use it. Silly roof top box. From that point on, all four shows were running late and involved a lot of rushing.
As a side note, to get to the Rotherhithe Tunnel we had gone through, and paid to go through, the Blackwall tunnel. As Mr Sat Nav said this was the fastest route. After the height issue at the Rotherhithe Tunnel, we had to go straight back through (and pay again to do so) the Blackwall Tunnel. Surely this shows that we are not used to driving in the area, that we are clueless, and that already Greenwich had got two payments from us – that (if we were Greenwich Street Savvy) we needn’t have paid.
So, on this day and at the time of the infraction, the driver was navigating completely unfamiliar roads, in fading light, under time pressure. Her response when I showed her the fine, and once we worked out what it was actually for, was as follows:
"it is too difficlut to look out for people and cars and follow the sat nav- and now i have to read every road sign?!?!
god its just a street. we arent taught this when driving. its just a normal street ffs"
I would suggest, perhaps ambitiously, that our reason for being in Greenwich might count as mitigation, or at least as grounds for a one-off amnesty. We were there to perform shows for children whose parents would not normally be able to afford to take them to a pantomime and similarly to elderly people who again would not have had a show otherwise. I can easily prove this, and also show that we only did two other non-profit shows of this kind during the entire tour. Having four such shows, all in Greenwich, was a genuine anomaly and could be looked at as giving something to the area.
That day consisted of two shows for nursery schools (the only nursery shows on the entire tour, as small nurseries would never be able to afford our show). There was also one show at a residential care home, and a fourth show at a neuro rehabilitation centre for mostly elderly residents with cognitive impairments.
I may be wrong, but it seems at least arguable that choosing to spend our one day off during the December tour bringing these shows into Greenwich, combined with the low light and unfamiliar roads, might go some way towards mitigating the fine.
I can provide evidence of all of the above, including our tour schedule showing that other dates were all commercial performances, and documentation of the venues we played in Greenwich that day. I can also provide reviews and comments received from the Greenwich venues. I would need to check whether we have anything back yet from the nursery schools, but we definitely do from the other two.
The only correspondence I have received so far is the PCN by post. I received it today when I got home. As I was away for most of December, I cannot be certain of the exact date it arrived. I have not responded in any way yet. Here is the PCN.
PCN page 1
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/KZ4Zxfo_xl.jpg)
PCN page 2
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/evDM7pP_xl.jpg)
PCN page 3
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/gs2VT1D_xl.jpg)
There were four photos originally. One of them was taken at night and is mostly black around the van. That one was rejected by imgpile, for reasons known only to imgpile.
There is also one video.
The photos and video made available by the council online, excluding the very dark fourth image, are below.
PHOTO 1
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/DCenA3b_xl.jpg)
PHOTO 2
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/l2wwfVd_xl.jpg)
PHOTO 3
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/jiwjFsL_xl.jpg)
VIDEO
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/qDoW6Gl_lg.mp4)
Regarding Street View, I am not entirely sure I have the correct spot, but this appears to be where the two roads meet.
(https://maps.app.goo.gl/kkQHtSP4x5XhQexd8)
I hope everything has uploaded correctly.
If I do not have a case, it would be helpful to know before the discount period expires. That said, if there is a reasonable chance of success, I would be keen to pursue it.
One final note. I present a weekly London radio show. It occurred to me that, if relevant, I could mention this situation in any representation. It is a talk show, and I could easily raise the subject of Greenwich and what feels, to an outsider, like a system designed to quietly extract fines from visiting vehicles.
Irrespective of this particular case, if any of the experts on here would like to come on the show to discuss these kinds of fines more generally, that could make for an interesting segment. It is an arts-based programme, but I could frame it around how these enforcement practices affect touring artists transporting equipment, and the impact of what feel like hidden or unexpected restrictions. If anyone is London-based, or ideally in or around South Croydon, this could work very well.
Thanks for any help, advice, reality checks, or abuse for my stupidity.