Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: RocketRonnieRadox on November 13, 2023, 06:23:54 pm
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Covent Carden PCN - I uploaded images to a site with a clicker in hidden format and they all got 2 clicks
Reply from council -
Reason(s) for rejection;
A PCN was issued to the above vehicle because it was 01-Parked in a
restricted street during prescribed hours in COVENT GARDEN - L2 on the
07/11/2023. The vehicle was observed between 10:46 and 10:51 and the
Notice was issued at 10:51. The operational hours of this restriction are 24
hours a day 7 days a week.
The issuing Civil Enforcement Officer has noted that the vehicle was parked
on a waiting restriction marked by a clear double yellow line. A number of
photographs were taken after the issue of the Penalty Charge Notice which
show the vehicle parked fully on the pavement on a clear double yellow line.
The vehicle was parked on a waiting restriction marked by double yellow
lines, this restriction is in operation 24 hours, 7 days a week, in other words ‘at
any time’; since 31st January 2003 councils have been no longer required to
erect time plates to accompany an ‘at any time’ restriction.
Waiting restrictions, indicated by single or double yellow lines at the edge of
carriageway, apply from the centre line of the carriageway to the building line
at the back of the highway and include the pavement and any verge.
Having given careful consideration to your informal challenge and all the
information available to me in the circumstances I must now advise you that
grounds for your informal challenge against the Penalty Charge Notice have
not been established.
It is the responsibility of the driver to check for restrictions and to ensure that
their vehicle is not parked in a manner that contravenes parking regulations.
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For the FYL case, the entry at item 46C of the traffic order on page 127 says "46C Covent Garden southwesterly side for its entire length."
That really only leaves you the strategy of last resort, which is explained here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/city-of-edinburgh-02-parked-in-a-restricted-street-lochrin-buildings-gilmour-pla/msg7413/#msg7413). It has worked before (see Simandeep Johal v London Borough of Lewisham (2230428653, 04 November 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1uO4vGI2oqMEn4AfG0PX8a90jO0Imon3E)) but we've not tried it on Liverpool yet.
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as for my bumper being over the yellow lines I was under the impression that it has to be a wheel.
I'm afraid you're mistaken and I would not risk the discount on that point. If you give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street View, I'll check it against The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4) to see if the road markings match up to the order.
As for the other one, you have much better chances but it is essential that you get something in writing from the bank and/or the app provider, otherwise the council will say that you've made it all up.
Many thanks here is a link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/npvyjJpZ5HGFEQms6
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as for my bumper being over the yellow lines I was under the impression that it has to be a wheel.
I'm afraid you're mistaken and I would not risk the discount on that point. If you give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street View, I'll check it against The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4) to see if the road markings match up to the order.
As for the other one, you have much better chances but it is essential that you get something in writing from the bank and/or the app provider, otherwise the council will say that you've made it all up.
So I wentback to the photo, and indeed your bumper is over the DYLs, so in my view a minimal incursion, but the council will make play of the fact that they hadn't got round to repainting the DYLs onto the resurface area, so a de minimis grounds is not strong. Your problem was thinking your wheels had to be on them; not so unfortunately. However when I look at this PCN, it really is venal moneygrubbing, but legal, I'm afraid.
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as for my bumper being over the yellow lines I was under the impression that it has to be a wheel.
I'm afraid you're mistaken and I would not risk the discount on that point. If you give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street View, I'll check it against The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4) to see if the road markings match up to the order.
As for the other one, you have much better chances but it is essential that you get something in writing from the bank and/or the app provider, otherwise the council will say that you've made it all up.
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I walked away and proceeded to use the app 2 pay. The app kept telling me that there is an error and my bank declined the payment. I tried multiple times but by the time I got backto the van to move it it had a ticket!
Do you have any screenshots, declined bank transactions, phone logs or anything else to support this?
If not, you might need to get in touch with the app provider to get the logs from their end.
As for the DYL PCN I think the first photo above shows a substantive contravention as your bumper is clearly over the yellow line, and it's too much to be de-minimis. Where you actually loading / unloading at the time?
I checked my statements and they never show declined transactions. Perhaps the bank / app service provider and show it in the logs.
As for the Covent garden PCN I was not loading due to the lack of lines that clearly show the limit of the loading bay I assumed it was general parking, the lack of lines and signs directly over the space mislead me. as for my bumper being over the yellow lines I was under the impression that it has to be a wheel.
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I walked away and proceeded to use the app 2 pay. The app kept telling me that there is an error and my bank declined the payment. I tried multiple times but by the time I got backto the van to move it it had a ticket!
Do you have any screenshots, declined bank transactions, phone logs or anything else to support this?
If not, you might need to get in touch with the app provider to get the logs from their end.
As for the DYL PCN I think the first photo above shows a substantive contravention as your bumper is clearly over the yellow line, and it's too much to be de-minimis. Where you actually loading / unloading at the time?
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Your third photo down has to be the decider. A clearly shown area of re-surfaced carriageway, with the double yellow lines at one end and the parking bay markings at the other end. So nothing to indicate where the parking bay ends nor the yellow lines; some unknown distance along the new tarmac !
So I have a case ?
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Your third photo down has to be the decider. A clearly shown area of re-surfaced carriageway, with the double yellow lines at one end and the parking bay markings at the other end. So nothing to indicate where the parking bay ends nor the yellow lines; some unknown distance along the new tarmac !
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more pics
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Photos for PCN LV12316578:
You've not answered the question of what you were doing while your vehicle was parked there? It's obviously overhanging the DYLs, even though we can't say to what extent.
Photos for LV11578728:
Where were you while trying to buy a session on your phone? The machine with the location code is right next to the van?
Also the traffic order is The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4) and if you can give us a google street view link to the exact spot where you parked, we can check whether the road markings are where they should be.
I was going to a timed appointment.
Yes I used the code on that machine next to the van.
I went there Covent garde4n tonight and took pics with few cars.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Photos for PCN LV12316578:
(https://i.imgur.com/XAml3Dt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0r7ZMGb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ohEKgQ2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/n5RilOf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ROVAXSP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/F8HkLDW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I0mNhkj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dng0QMZ.jpg)
You've not answered the question of what you were doing while your vehicle was parked there? It's obviously overhanging the DYLs, even though we can't say to what extent.
Photos for LV11578728:
(https://i.imgur.com/dThQiaY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Tnrw1rm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uXZ4w4t.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a0rIvBF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QkQeYTC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3zbWI9K.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ShuaT7C.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E1z5rYt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qTOXQfu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Uy4gIBc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XUOH4sr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hosAq0w.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rAWdzI0.jpg)
Where were you while trying to buy a session on your phone? The machine with the location code is right next to the van?
Also the traffic order is The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4) and if you can give us a google street view link to the exact spot where you parked, we can check whether the road markings are where they should be.
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OK, so looks like a recent patching job on the tarmac and they haven't repainted the yellow lines. We would really need to see how long the section is without the lines, but you may well struggle getting this overturned. There has been the ocasional success, but we'd need a photo of the section with no yellow lines. Double yellows need no signs, the lines are sufficient, but this means no lines should equal no contravention. What is against you is that part of your van is over the yellow line. Its not much but enough for a council to argue about.
I will go there and get an image.
The loading only had no lines as did the section of road in front of it where I parked.
Not having lines in front of the patking place gave me the impression that I could legally park there.
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Looks a shambles to me.
Can we start with the PCNs and alleged contraventions and then look at the evidence, including your account.
PCN 1
Parked in a restricted street during restricted hours.
Whichever way this it cut, at best these grounds are not the contravention because No Loading is 24/7, therefore it would have to be 'parked or loading etc...'.
Therefore, irrespective of views about the DYL, what were you doing while parked? If unloading/collecting etc. then the contravention did not occur.
PCN2
Parked without displaying ......
But you posted 'I usually pay in the phone and pay app'.
Mutually exclusive. According to the OP, there is no requirement to display!
However, one of our posters has shown that PbP is permitted, in which case the contravention is pants.
OK to address your comment - I was not parked in the loading only area I was parked on the road in front of it on a section of road that had no double yellow lines. The loading bay in front of my also had no yellow lines further supporting my choce of parking as the only sign of yellow lines as the end of the lines behind my van, I will have to go bac to get images.
Ticket 2 - of course if paying by app no need to display but the app / bank charge failed causing me to return to the van only to find that I was too late.
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Looks a shambles to me.
Can we start with the PCNs and alleged contraventions and then look at the evidence, including your account.
PCN 1
Parked in a restricted street during restricted hours.
Whichever way this it cut, at best these grounds are not the contravention because No Loading is 24/7, therefore it would have to be 'parked or loading etc...'.
Therefore, irrespective of views about the DYL, what were you doing while parked? If unloading/collecting etc. then the contravention did not occur.
PCN2
Parked without displaying ......
But you posted 'I usually pay in the phone and pay app'.
Mutually exclusive. According to the OP, there is no requirement to display!
However, one of our posters has shown that PbP is permitted, in which case the contravention is pants.
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OK, so looks like a recent patching job on the tarmac and they haven't repainted the yellow lines. We would really need to see how long the section is without the lines, but you may well struggle getting this overturned. There has been the ocasional success, but we'd need a photo of the section with no yellow lines. Double yellows need no signs, the lines are sufficient, but this means no lines should equal no contravention. What is against you is that part of your van is over the yellow line. Its not much but enough for a council to argue about.
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OK regarding Covent Garden - this is what I saw and thought that the double yellows ended. please see attached
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Edit
GSV links updated to show 2023 views
Covent Garden
Covent Garden is a one-way street, and this is what you see when you turn into it.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vtee7uoxrg88xGiAA
and this
https://maps.app.goo.gl/abixAmRtNu84Xzk86
and here's a sign about halfway down
https://maps.app.goo.gl/P95H3VPrnjSCww2i9
There is a loading bay by the Pig & Whisle
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GAFJdjqLwnaXM7gN6
There is also a sign for No Loading by the ticket machine for the parking bay. Not that there is a divider between it and the P&D bay
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XHZTHQHQjkopkv9s7
Looking at GSV, the whole street is double-yellow lines except for the loading and P & D parking bays so please tell us where there are none.
So you need to take a photo showing where you managed to park with no double-yellow lines, because an adjudicator would believe the council on this one.
Bixteth Street
On-street Liverpool parking bays allow use of the "Phone and pay" app.
https://liverpool.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/find-parking/phone-and-pay/
website
https://www.phoneandpay.co.uk/
However one can also use the ticket machine. As this is an alternative, why did you not use it ? This is the first thing the council will come back to you with if you submit representations that the app was playing up; why didn't you use the ticket machine ?
You also appeared to have walked off away from your vehicle, whilst trying to pay, which is also not wise, as if you were present and a CEO happened along, you would be able to show him you were in course of paying. We have seen threads a few years ago where the person who got the ticket had walked to his office 10 minutes away and then tried to park !
Anyway, you need to try to find what the app will provide in terms of an audit trail of your attempts to pay if you want to get any chance of success.
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Hi All, I had a real bad day and received 2 PCN's on the same day.
Firstly I got on on Covent Garden Liverpool, there were no double yellow lines, there was a van already parked there with no ticket. I parked and came back to a ticket despite there being no signage or double yellow lines. There was a loading only but I parked in front of it where there were no yellow lines at all yet still got a ticket. This is part 1 of 2.
I then got next PCN as I parked in a council pay parking spot which I usually pay in the phone and pay app. I walked away and proceeded to use the app 2 pay. The app kept telling me that there is an error and my bank declined the payment. I tried multiple times but by the time I got backto the van to move it it had a ticket!
What can I do on both counts please ?
Many thanks
(https://i.imgur.com/DfU1JcX.png)
[attachment deleted by admin]