Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: greentowel on November 12, 2023, 09:33:57 am
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On checking my mirrors in preparation for the turn
Better to say
"as I entered the box turning left I became aware......
I used that term as it indicates good practice but am not particularly bother whatever the Op feels comfortable with
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On checking my mirrors in preparation for the turn
Better to say
"as I entered the box turning left I became aware......
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I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxxxx on the grounds that
There was no contravention of a prescribed order.
As i turned left into great west rd from windmill rd my intended route was into the left hand lane. On checking my mirrors in preparation for the turn I became aware of a motorbike approaching on my left preventing me from continuing as planned. I opened up the steering allowing my vehicle to drift slightly to the right in order to prevent a probable accident with the motorbike,(they undertaking recklessly)
In preventing this potential accident i had to come to a stop within the confines of the box marking, this stop was however in order to avoid an accident. NOT because of stationary vehicles as the regulations regulations require
As such no contravention occurred and the PCN should now be cancelled
Try this The idea is not to overthink it and say to much but let TfL do the work ( they will reject anything you say anyway so you are just setting the field)
If it comes to appealing to the tribunal i will represent you if you wish
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Your honesty does you credit but will see you losing.
In effect you are saying you followed the bus into the box and stopped because it did.
That is the contravention cited and fully made out.
The evidence is what will be used to prove or disprove the contravention so work on what can be seen, not what you know.
The video shows you entering the box behind the bus but seeming to be steering for the left hand lane.
The video shows you braking as you were steering.
It also shows a moving moped sneaking up the inside while you were braking.
So maybe should be phrased as was stopping due to the moped to be exact.
TBH I regard it as the stutter dance polite people do when trying to pass each other in a doorway.
Step left, step right, stop, after you, no after you.
At the end of the day, it is either grab the discount or be ready to take this to adjudication where an adjudicator will look at the video, listen to what you have to say and decide.
IMO, challenge now with the best light you can put on the evidence and that will be on the table at adjudication.
The less you try to justify each little movement, the less there is for anyone to pick holes in.
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Stopping the video at 1:27, you are right that I could have easily taken the left lane, the same can be said at 1:25, when I enter the box. At that point however I think I was not aware that the bus was going to come to a full stop, the traffic lights on the right-hand side of the road where behind the bus and the left-hand side ones had not come into my view yet. At that point all three vehicles are also moving. The bus stops at 1:29, from 1:29 to 1:32 you can see me trying to make it to the gap left by the bus, at 1:32 I stop. The mopped had already stopped at 1:30, though, and at 1:33 it starts moving again, undertaking me.
I don't know whether it matters, but if I made representations saying I stopped because of the mopped, can't they easily then say why didn't I move after the mopped undertook me?, from 1:37 to 1:43 in the video.
The combination of me not being aware the bus was going to stop and the mopped being so close behind me and so close to the left side of the road, as if going to undertake me, meant I took a wider than necessary turn to the left. Then the bus stopped and given that I had taken a wide turn I was positioned in such a way that, at the time, I didn't think I could get to the gap without hitting the bus or reversing, the video shows that maybe I could have gone through without reversing, but that is not that clear to me. I did consider reversing, but I thought that was more dangerous than just staying put (and more likely to lead to a PCN oddly enough).
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My take is that you intended to take the left hand lane, were steering to the left hand lane but felt compelled to stop due to a moped on the inside who seemed to be undertaking or about to.
The stop was solely so as to avoid an accident and possibly wiping out a rider.
It should be noted that the moped was not stationary when I stopped so one leg of the contravention, ie stopping due to stationary traffic is not complete.
I would not mention the bus unless it is to dismiss it.... the bus was stationary but that was not the reason for the stop.
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My only issue or maybe worry is a better term is that if you stop the video at 1.27 then with proper left hand steering then the driver could easily take the left lane. To me you have to emphasize the bike on your left that stopped you the bike is clearly visible coming up your inside that is the reason for not going directly into the left lane
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No problem.
It's always good to get a consensus view so if you can wait a little longer I'd be inclined to see if others are happy with the revised draft or have any further comments/suggestions.
Hopefully you spotted I left an "X" in the draft for you to substitute with the true width.
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Thank you for the detailed response and draft MrChips, that is very helpful.
The car is a VW Golf, the width without mirrors is 1.79 meters and with mirrors, 2.02m, so 1.905m counting just one of the mirrors.
I will send the representation and will update with TfL's response.
Thank you!
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Measuring the lane width on GoogleMaps suggests they are 2.9 - 3.0 metres wide. The car in question is a VW - not sure the precise model (Tiguan?) but it's likely to be no more than 1.95 metres wide (including mirrors on the right hand side). In which case only two-thirds of the lane was needed to get past the bus. It looks to me like the rear wheel of the bus is on the lane marker, it is at a slight angle so the rear of the bus would be protruding into the left hand lane but not by enough to take up a third of it in my opinion.
I still think the driver could have completed the manoeuvre if they had been minded to. That they didn't can only be out of extreme caution/nervousness/misjudgement, not from being blocked in which is the legal test. Updated draft as follows:
Dear TFL
I received your PCN ref XXXXXXXXX in respect of stopping in a box junction.
The Highway Code makes clear that you must not enter a box junction unless your exit is clear. The video footage you have supplied clearly shows my chosen exit lane (the lane to the left of the bus) is clear and available for me to take and consequently I do not believe a contravention has occurred.
There are two exit lanes available and only one vehicle in front of me (the bus) when I commit to entering the box junction. The bus takes the right hand lane but in so doing leaves its rear left wheel on the lane divider, and with the bus at a slight angle its rear is straddling the two lanes by a small margin. However by the time it comes to a complete halt the incursion into the left lane is relatively minor and the video footage shows a big enough gap for me to pass through (after the light turns green and I pass through the junction, you can see there is plenty of spare width on either side of my car relative to the lane).
I believe the video footage is clear that I could have passed by the bus into the vacant exit but, for completeness, I have also analysed the distance using Google Maps. The lane width is between 2.9 metres and 3.0 metres and the width of my vehicle is only Xm. Consequently the bus would have had to incurred into my exit lane by at least a third of the lane width to leave my chosen exit unavailable and in my view the video evidence shows this not to be the case. If you see fit to reject these representations please explain on what basis you disagree.
I also understand the specific test set out in the relevant legislation is whether I caused my vehicle to enter the box junction so that it had [my emphasis] to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Clearly I did stop my vehicle in the box, but in my view the video footage is also clear that I did not have to stop where I did. I could have continued into my chosen exit lane unimpeded had I been minded to. That I didn't is regretable but not punishable in these circumstances. My reasons for stopping where I did are that there was a red light ahead and so I did not see any advantage in making a narrow pass of the bus, and I was also aware of the moped behind me considering undertaking me. The roadworks on the far side of the junction have effectively ceased to make this junction a crossroads and as such I knew that in stopping where I did I would not be blocking the traffic flow so it seemed the best course of action at the time.
In these circumstances I look forward to confirmation that you have cancelled this PCN.
Yours faithfully,
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It did given the chosen path, that is why the usual argument would need be augmented to explain the fact the OP felt they would have needed to reverse to get by suggests a somewhat timid driver because it does not look to be the case on the CCTV and the intent of the regs is not to punish a timid driver. Nor is it possible to see if the bus could have moved forward more
This is not unwinnable but will take strong argument
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It did stop because of stationary vehicles, but my point is that it didn't have to.
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Seems I'm the only one who thinks the car could get past! I'll do some measurements on Google maps when I get home.
Not quite right, I think it could, but it didn't because of the bus. What i am not convinced of is an adjudicator accepting that was not stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles
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Seems I'm the only one who thinks the car could get past! I'll do some measurements on Google maps when I get home.
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TBH I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one. Whilst you may have wanted to enter the left lane exit, the bus stopped you in the box. I can't see an adjudicator favouring you, but see what the others say.
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Thank you both.
I was trying to go to the left most lane, not the lane where the bus stop. I indeed had to stop because of the bus, and I could have manoeuvre to get into my lane, but it would have required me going on reverse. It felt safer at the time to just wait for the traffic light to change rather than reversing, particularly as I had no visibility over the road I had just come from.
Would you mention anything about the bus invading the left most lane, the size of the box or the roadworks?
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There is a key case that dictates that the lane you take is the one that must be clear in this situation i feel that the contravention is made out as your direction of travel means you had to stop because of the stationary bus, unless you can argue that you could in fact manoeuvre so as to pass the bus on the left.My view is that excepting the motorbike passing you on the inside, you could
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Copying across my response from pepipoo...
Seems to me you had plenty of room to escape into that left hand lane. It's only if you are forced to stop in the box by stationary vehicles that you can be punished.
Suggest drafting representations along the following lines. The discount period seems already to have expired, in which case there's no incentive for you not to take this all the way to the tribunal if TFL reject (which they invariably will).
Dear TFL
I received your PCN ref XXXXXXXXX in respect of stopping in a box junction.
The Highway Code makes clear that you must not enter a box junction unless your exit is clear. The video footage you have supplied clearly shows my chosen exit lane is clear and available for me to take. In these circumstances, I am unsure why you have seen fit to issue me a PCN.
I also understand the specific test set out in the relevant legislation is whether I caused my vehicle to enter the box junction so that it had to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Clearly I did stop my vehicle in the box, but in my view the video footage is also clear that I did not have to stop where I did. I could have continued into my chosen exit lane unimpeded had I wished to.
In these circumstances I look forward to confirmation that you have cancelled this erroneous PCN.
Yours faithfully,
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Hi all,
Coming from pepipoo.com where a moderator suggested I posted here (original post on pepipoo.com: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=152030)
First time poster, apologies in advance if I do something wrong!
I am gutted as I recently received a penalty charge notice issued by TfL for stopping at a box junction. This is in the intersection between Great West Road and Windmill Road, where there is currently roadworks.
You can see the links to the PCN, pictures and video below. I am the black car behind the bus.
I was waiting on the traffic lights on Windmill Road behind a bus to turn left (which is the only thing you can do given the roadworks), it was only the bus in front of me at the traffic lights and normally there are 3 lanes available to turn left (one of them was blocked because of the roadworks, which I didn't know), so I was pretty certain I would be able to get out of the box junction when I entered, however the bus stopped at the traffic lights just after the junction blocking my lane and leaving me in the box. The bus appeared to be doing a wide turn, so I didn't think I needed to have a particularly close turn, but then closed at the last minute and stopped invading the lane I was going for. I did not have enough clearance between myself and the bus to make it through the gap between the kerb and the bus (where my car would have fit), you can see me trying to get to it on the video but had I continued I would have hit the bus, essentially I would have had to reverse in the box junction to be able to turn enough to make it through. Had the bus not invaded my lane I would have been able to get out of the box with no issue.
Do I have any grounds to appeal this?
A couple other points I can think of is that the box seems to extend way beyond the junction, and had the box been just the size of the junction maybe I would not have ended up stopping on it. Also, with the roadworks, this is not a junction anymore and the only way to exit is the direction I was going towards, so I could not have prevented incoming traffic for going through, but I am not sure whether that matters.
There is also a lot of irony that a TfL bus made me get a TfL issued PCN.
Even though more than 14 days have passed from the day of the notice, because I had to wait for the DVD with the video to arrive, I am still on the discount period, the DVD arrive on the 9th of November, but the letter is is dated 6th of November, I am unsure when the discount period will end.
Thank you very much for any help, I really appreciate it!
PCN:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZ39FbkEEJ1ebLWm4fkB5eOOZZ763Ry/
Pictures
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jLqRCXWYUKf9PCXJJ0_7Hfno4bVgYdBp/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uUS4pSlPWYlSlhuNMKM-1mZd0maFRaRQ/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxv8euViVZBg53-dvDyqxfG4CmGGrR2P/
Video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhQRzWMWDdBdolhyF2SUlrtYy1bpPikl/