Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: shayler25 on December 08, 2025, 04:04:42 pm
-
So it would be a win at London Tribunals, and it is a no-brainer to take them there because you've paid already with the tow payment.
-
OP,IMO QED.
To elaborate:
What was a 4-bay parking place in Apr. 2025 is now 3 bays;
What was bay 2 is now bay 1.
The traffic sign in bay 2 in Apr. 2025 is now in bay 1;
The post which is in the photos of 26 May adjacent to your car is the only post, and it did not carry a traffic sign as can be seen in the council's evidence.
The suspension sign must be sitting on an otherwise blank post.
For info, the nonsense* suspension cannot be placed over a traffic sign, it must sit on an otherwise simple post unless the council have replaced the missing traffic sign since 26 May.
* there aren't '4 paid bays' there are 3 bays, and how is a motorist to know that they're 'paid bays' because there isn't a traffic sign which shows this!!
-
For each PCN, all the relevant dates (date PCN issued, date you challenged, date council responded, date of subsequent Notice to Owner, date you submitted representations to the NTO, date council rejected your representations).
Please also take photos of all the paperwork and upload here. Only redact your name and address.
-
Please see the link for two photos which show the current situation;
https://imgpile.com/p/l7RFQOw
Please note the yellow sign was not present when my car was towed and as you can the temporary restrictions on the sign are in the future - this yellow sign is attached to the black pole you can see in my PCN.
-
Apologies, what info do you need?
-
OP, stamfordman's post of 2 June, which I gather supports the removal, shows your car in Pentland Place.
You posted GSV of Manor Place at a point where a bay is internally divided, as per my post.
These photos dated 26 May do not show a bay behind you, instead they show DYL. However, the bay you are in comprises 4 bays(you are in no.1) and is separated(with the mandatory markings) from another parking place 3 bays from you.
So, is there a traffic sign within the 4-bay parking space?
We don't know. There's a post next to your car, but it's not the one in GSV, this is in bay 2 which cannot be seen but a year ago carried a traffic sign.
Photos are not obligatory.
A motorist is required to comply with signs in situ, whether they align with any web-based research of the driver or not. If the authority's responses do not address your reps then IMO this goes to procedural impropriety and does not relate to the underlying contravention.
So:
As regards the tow(which was only 9 days ago) can you take a photo(s) showing the extent of the parking place in Pentland Place, its separation from the bay ahead and the presence or otherwise of traffic signs. If these show that a traffic sign is not in situ, then IMO this would be accepted as contemporaneous evidence by an adjudicator and proof that a contravention did not occur.
-
We're still waiting for any detail in respect of the PCNs, particularly the first two. Please can you provide this urgently.
The situations with the bays could be moot if you've locked yourself out of the appeal process due to missing deadlines.
-
Last year you posted:
For context, there are two adjacent bays on the street (clearly divided by a line) where one has a sign, and the bay in which I have parked for a considerable amount of time does not; it previously did but was vandalised and removed months ago.
When there was a sign the restrictions for the bay were very different from the adjacent bay and therefore couldn’t be considered one continuous parking zone.
But GSV for April 2025 shows 2 traffic signs with identical wording, namely:
Parking; Mon-Fri, 8.30-6.30
Permit holders E
or pay by phone 02070050055 quoting location 84602; Max stay 4 hours.
This suggests that the restriction is the same whichever side of the line one's parked. In addition, TSM and GSV show an internal dividing line, not two adjacent bays, let alone with different restrictions.
What is the basis of your claim regarding the different restrictions?
Please see the councils own website outlining parking restrictions which shows the bays to be different if you would like to check for yourself;
https://geomap.southwark.gov.uk/connect/analyst/mobile/#/main?mapcfg=%2FAnalyst%2FNamedProjects%2FSouthwark%20parking%20map
-
This is essentially irrelevant Tincombe as the council have confirmed they are separate bays with different restrictions and are not pursuing the PCNs on that basis, their view is that they are able to give a PCN even when there is no signage available if they give you a paper, non official or headed piece of paper which states they may give you a ticket.
I’m not sure why you are getting so hung up on this fact when it isn’t the base for my claims as you can see. If this is important, the sign you can see in 2025 was taken down immediately as it should be permit only, and not permit and pay; the same sign as the ones on the opposite side of the road.
I do hope this clarifies for you.
-
Last year you posted:
For context, there are two adjacent bays on the street (clearly divided by a line) where one has a sign, and the bay in which I have parked for a considerable amount of time does not; it previously did but was vandalised and removed months ago.
When there was a sign the restrictions for the bay were very different from the adjacent bay and therefore couldn’t be considered one continuous parking zone.
But GSV for April 2025 shows 2 traffic signs with identical wording, namely:
Parking; Mon-Fri, 8.30-6.30
Permit holders E
or pay by phone 02070050055 quoting location 84602; Max stay 4 hours.
This suggests that the restriction is the same whichever side of the line one's parked. In addition, TSM and GSV show an internal dividing line, not two adjacent bays, let alone with different restrictions.
What is the basis of your claim regarding the different restrictions?
-
So where is the list of all the PCNs, their contraventions/locations, and their timeline?
I noted the different locations and contraventions.
-
Because there is a clear dividing line between the bays, the signs had different restrictions on when there was one, and the council confirmed they were different bays.
-
Why do you think there are adjacent bays with different restrictions?
IMO, nothing about the markings indicates separate bays, see Para. 13.6.8
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
-
OP, do you understand what's been communicated so far?
Your PCNs split into two groups. The oldest two, which at face value, seem to be too late to challenge, and the newest four which you can still challenge, likely successfully.
Can we get a timeline for the oldest two in the first instance (date of PCN, date of challenge, date of receipt of rejection, date of NTO, date of formal representations etc).
-
Read this thread for more info:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/enfield-pcn-code-27-dropped-kerb/
-
You should have been given the PCN by the pound when you collected the car and paid the PCN and towing fee.
Did/does the PCN show signs of having been previously folded? It may have been served properly, and then taken out of the envelope by the staff at the pound in order to hand to you. I've not been in your position before so I don't know the proper process, but I do know they cannot tow the vehicle if a PCN has not been properly served to the vehicle at the scene. If all that was ever put on the car is an empty yellow envelope, that's not sufficient.
If the PCN has not been folded, keep it safe and unfolded!
-
Very interesting regarding the PCN left on my car when towed - you are absolutely right there was an empty PCN on my windscreen but no ticket inside; does that tend to be a pretty straightforward challenge?
-
Mr Chips is right that the previous PCNs could have some bearing on the removal although I can't see that you meet the definition of a persistent evader and therefore subject to removal priority.
So make a list of each PCN with dates of each event/action subsequent to the issue so we can see the status of each.
-----------
From statutory guidance:
A vehicle owner can be classed as a ‘persistent evader’ if there are 3 or more recorded contraventions for the vehicle and the penalties for these have not been paid, represented against or appealed against within the statutory time limits, or their representations and appeals have been rejected but they have still not paid.
Usually, this is because the vehicle keeper is not registered, or is not correctly registered, on the DVLA database, and the owner is confident that they can avoid paying any penalty charges.
-
Not that I saw but I can honestly say I know that for sure, I have 5 PCNs with them all for the same parking issue - JK18987437
You need to be more specific. What is it that you didn't see? A Notice of Rejection? Or details of how to appeal in the Notice of Rejection?
You're going to need to photograph all the paperwork you've received and upload it if you want us to be able to assist properly. Redact your name and address but leave everything else visible.
-
OK, I've looked up all six PCN numbers you provided - two of these (JK17555685 and JK18627114 issued on 29 October 2025 and 25 November 2025 respectively) are beyond the point when you can appeal them further as you have run out of time. This assumes you received the Notice to Owner in the post and either didn't submit formal representations, or did and received the Notice of Rejection. If that isn't the case please make it clear to us.
JK18627114 has already reached the £250 stage which means Southwark have applied to register the debt and you could be looking at Bailffs in the near future.
In respect of JK17555685, which is the oldest of the PCN numbers you provided here, the council photos show there was already another PCN affixed to the vehicle when this was issued, which suggests there's another PCN not in your list (unless the council already cancelled this one)?
For three of the other four PCNs (JK18987437, JK19029399, JK19061416 issued on 16 January 2026, 26 January 2026 and 28 January 2026 respectively), they are still at the £80 discount stage with the council portal suggesting you've submitted an informal challenge which has been rejected. These are still in play and should be beatable based on the lack of signage (but you need to stick to the formal process and deadlines).
The final PCN is JK19743857 which was issued on 26 May 2026 and has been paid. That suggests this is the PCN in respect of which your vehicle was towed and which you paid to release. I guess they towed you due to the vehicle having so many outstanding PCNs which marked you as a serial offender in Southwark's eyes.
Others will be better placed to advise you on the two oldest PCNs and whether there's anything that can be done on these.
For the other four, these should be beatable. Out of interest, when you picked up your PCN at the car pound for JK19743857, did it show signs of being folded? They are obliged to serve it on the vehicle before it gets towed but they sometimes don't bother and just take a photo of an empty PCN envelope on the windscreen which would invalidate this PCN if so.
Can you also clarify the status of the extra PCN which was served before 29 October 2025 (i.e. the additional PCN on the car in the council photos).
EDIT - I guess the "additional PCN" is the warning notice you referred to in your original post?
-
Not that I saw but I can honestly say I know that for sure, I have 5 PCNs with them all for the same parking issue - JK18987437
-
Did you receive the notice of rejection in respect of that PCN? Did it not set out the details of how to appeal to the independent adjudicator and the deadlines for doing so?
Don't correspond with the council directly other than in writing and through formal channels or this could become messy.
-
I have been sending emails and speaking on the phone - I asked them how to appeal/take to tribunal in an email and they never responded. I’ve got a bit lost and confused with it all recently; what do I need to do next as I have other PCNs still in the challenge stage
-
Edit I've looked it up online - it says they've rejected your representations and you haven't appealed to the adjudicator. Please clarify.
-
What does 'in dispute' mean with regards to the stage of the PCN process? They can't tow if you are still challenging it (either at the representations stage or adjudicator stage).
-
I believe it was for non payment of the fine for this PCN JK17555685 as I continue to be in dispute with them that they cannot enforce parking restrictions without a sign present, even if they leave a paper warning on my car.
Is there anything else I should be saying on top of my earlier post as they have rejected my previous appeals which is why I have given so much content?
-
They are taking the mick - here are some of the pics for the tow PCN and there's a pic of a signless post.
There are no pics of the lift or tow.
It's supposed to be a pay bay as the contravention is:
11u - Parked without payment of the parking charge (electronic payment)
Or is it as another PCN you had was for a shared use residents/pay bay.
But I see there are two locations - Penton Place and Manor Place for these PCNs.
Post all the stuff you were given at the pound.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gv8prj60/sign3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3mmL1HVY/sign2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pv1MVwGd/sign.jpg)
-
Thank you for your reply.
The PCN is JK19743857 and issued on the 26th May
-
Playing cat and mouse with a missing sign can lead to tears - I presume you are not eligible for a permit.
But the bay sign must be there (and you don't need all that stuff to say so).
What PCN was used for the tow and what date.
-
Does this work;
https://imgpile.com/p/4XhUMPh
Also yes it relates to previous thread, been ongoing
-
I did collect, the windscreen was **** on pick up as well which it wasn't when it was picked up - photos to show so hopefully not an issue.
Trying to upload but struggling, all the PCNs are essentially the same so if I manage to upload one would that suffice?
-
Have you reclaimed the car from the pound?
We have no dates?
It would be helpful to see the documents - see
for guidance onm posting images see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Does this relate to your other thread?
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/parking-fine-southwark-council/msg101514/#msg101514?
-
Hi all,
Hoping for some speedy help as my car has been towed by the council and taken to a car pound which requires a huge fee to release.
I have been parking on a road in Walworth, Southwark, for over 2 years where no signage (except for a 2 month window in 2025) has been present in a bay which was previously a parking permit only bay. For roughly 18 months you were able to park in this bay without a permit as there was no sign, agreed previously by the council as they cancelled a couple of my PCNs for that reason when given in error by new member of staff who wasn't aware. Around 4 months ago a paper warning was left on my car stating a fine could be given for parking here even though a sign wasn't and still isn't present - there are now other signs on the road or surrounding which would indicate any parking restrictions. There is an adjacent but distinct bay on the same road which you can pay to park in. I am currently challenging all 5 PCNs with the council but they are dismissing me despite by evidence which includes photos of the bay with no sign present, as well as the below from myself;
Good afternoon,
Please see below my challenges of the below PCN's.
JK18987437, JK19029399, JK19061416, JK17555685
There is no signage in this bay and therefore no parking restrictions enforceable. The Southwark website states the following "Parking bays have white markings on the road. Each bay sign states who can park and the hours of enforcement." - https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/parking/places-park/street-parking-bays. As you can see this outlines the need for signage to be present for parking restrictions, neither of which is the case in this case.
Your website also states "In order for bays to be defined, they
must be marked out with particular types
of road marking that are prescribed
under statute (the TSRGD). If they are
designated bays then they also need to
be supported by upright signs (for which
see standard DS.003) and – as
discussed in ‘a’ TMOs" - https://www.southwark.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-10/ds_005_arranging_and_deliniating_parking_bays.pdf refer to 1.2.C. . As you can see this outlines the need for upright signs or road markings to be present for parking restrictions, neither of which is the case in this case.
Furthermore, your website also states "Traffic signs may be either upright signs
or road markings. Their use is governed
mainly by the statutory requirements of
the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Direction 2016 (TSRGD). They will generally
only introduce them in order to provide
warning of some safety concern or to
help make a Traffic Management Order
enforceable (e.g. a parking, access or
turning restriction)." - https://www.southwark.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-10/ds_300_overaching_requirements_and_principles_for_signs_rev_c.pdf 1.2.a. As you can see this outlines the need for upright signs or road markings to be present for parking restrictions, neither of which is the case in this case.
In addition, Traffic Signs Regulations and General Direction 2016 (TSRGD) as per the government traffic guide manual (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf) states that;
"For a parking sign to be legally enforceable by local authorities or the police, it must adhere to TSRGD parameters:
Clearance and Siting: The sign must be clearly visible and legible from the road, typically requiring specific mounting heights and post setbacks.
Double Signage: If the bay spans a large area, signs are typically required at the entry/beginning and end of the restricted zone.
Road Markings (Yellow Lines): Upright signs are designed to work in conjunction with road markings. A sign regulating parking on a street is generally invalid if the corresponding lines (e.g., single or double yellow lines) are faded, broken, or incorrectly drawn.
Authorisation: Any non-standard sign (which departs from permitted TSRGD dimensions, colors, or symbols) requires special authorization from the Department for Transport (DfT). "
Another statement from the TSRGD document is - "The normal regulatory signs must still be provided to make the
restriction enforceable"
In relation to being in a CPZ - the following applies from TSRGD;
The extent of a type (a) CPZ will be determined by specific characteristics. For example, the zone could be an area where a specific parking permit is valid. It might be an area where the type of parking, such as pay and display (possibly with uniform charges), is the same throughout. Where the parking is time‑limited with no charge, the prohibition on return to the parking place might be applied to the whole zone. This would be appropriate only for small zones, as it would be unreasonable to expect drivers not to return to any part of a large area; enforcement would also be difficult. The signs located at the parking bays in this type of zone would include the legend “No return to Zone A within 2 hours” (or similar), as prescribed by S18‑2 (permitted expressions for parking restriction signs). In this case the zone identifier would be shown on the entry sign and would also apply to any permit parking within the zone. In an 198 CONTROLLED PARKING ZONES area with a mix of different types of parking, a zone could represent a small geographical area, the name of which may be added to the entry sign as a zone identifier
As you can see from the images in my PCNs, the signage requirements have not been met in any of the 4 cases.
As you can see from the above and accompanying images in my PCN, there was not clear or adequate signage for the bays in which I was parked in all four of the PCN's above.
JK18627114
The same as above applies, however in this case you can see that the sign in the PCN is taken from the adjacent bay which is deliberately misleading.
In any case, the requirements of signage are still not met as in my previous PCN.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CRwidttENG3igBJP7
You will see that there are two distinct bays separated by a white line - the sign above the grey RECO van is the one which hasn't been there for the majority of the last 2 years (you can see this if you see the July 2024 street view).
Any help greatly appreciated!
-
Read this and give us the stuff.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
-
Good afternoon everyone,
I have been given a parking fine for an on street local authority parking bay even though there is no signage for the bay.
For context, there are two adjacent bays on the street (clearly divided by a line) where one has a sign, and the bay in which I have parked for a considerable amount of time does not; it previously did but was vandalised and removed months ago.
When there was a sign the restrictions for the bay were very different from the adjacent bay and therefore couldn’t be considered one continuous parking zone.
Parking has not been restricted in this bay for months as confirmed by the local parking officers and local authority office, so we have been parking in there for free and not received any tickets.
However recently they have decided after sending a warning letter they can now enforce parking restrictions even though no sign is present. I got caught by this as was given a warning ticket and actual ticket in consecutive days as I had not seen the warning.
Am I wrong for thinking they shouldn’t be able to enforce parking restrictions and give tickets without a sign present, warning or not?
Thanks in advance!