Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jays86 on November 10, 2023, 07:38:55 pm
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For future reference:
The Borough of Thurrock (Stopping, Waiting, Loading and On-street Parking) Order 2017. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HkPFiq_ce_NcyznqA2j4r1nsmGOizm1j/view)
Notice of variation of charges. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D4Md6XBozqCnOFIMT9r8lBBdlgDxyrAR/view)
Map tiles. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/121-doz-YJJLNNokoWw9TA-FOYPB181kv/view)
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DNC'ed.
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@jays86 I think your best bet is to appoint a representative, I'm going to drop you a PM about that.
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@cp8759 did reference some other points earlier in this thread including:
There is precisely zero evidence of signage, so there's no prima-facie contravention. That being said, I would keep all technical arguments for a much later stage, you have what amounts to reasons beyond your control for not moving the vehicle and that is normally an exemption in the traffic order.
and
For later:
The Borough of Thurrock (Stopping, Waiting, Loading and On-street Parking) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1HkPFiq_ce_NcyznqA2j4r1nsmGOizm1j)
Notice of variation of charges (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1D4Md6XBozqCnOFIMT9r8lBBdlgDxyrAR)
I'm not sure how best to include these items in my appeal though, or indeed which bits are actually relevant!
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I believe that the deadline for submitting the appeal is this Thursday
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It looks good to go to me, but see if cp8759 wants to say anything. What's the deadline for submission ? Remember it has to be with them inside the period for submitting reps, not just sent off.
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@Incandescent @cp8759 Would you be add anything additional to those reps? If not then I'll get the Appeal started with that!
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Don't miss any deadline !!!
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@cp8759 I haven't submitted it yet, currently it is the same as my last reps to the council and includes the letter from The Community House. Any additional input would be greatly appreciated!
Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing with regards to PCN TK03017674. On arriving at the bay I paid for parking until 11.01, I was attending a meeting which was due to last until 10.30 and was conscious that this time allowed for any overrun of the meeting. I left The Community House at 10:55 to make my way back to my vehicle, according to Google Maps the bay in which I was parked was less than 100m from The Community House and therefore there was ample time for me to get back to my vehicle. However, as I was exiting down the steps of the building I slipped and fell, twisting my ankle and injuring my knee. One of the Trustees of The Community House who I had met with came to my assistance and took me back into the building to administer First Aid, including cleaning my knee and strapping my ankle. After First Aid had been administered I made my way back to my vehicle, arriving back to it around 11.18 which was the earliest that I could do given the unexpected delay, injury. My walking was significantly impaired and I had to make my way back to the car unaided. I'm therefore surprised that I managed it by 11.18, in fact only missing your CEO by a matter of a few minutes - I remember the time distinctly because I checked when I found the PCN. I do not know whether these circumstances, which were clearly beyond my control, fit under the grounds of 'contravention did not occur' or 'penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case' but in either case I request that the authority would none the less cancel the PCN. I also attach a letter from The Community House confirming that I attended a meeting there, and that they administered First Aid as a result of me slipping on the steps when leaving the building.
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@jays86 please confirm how far you've got with your appeal.
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I'm happy to push on and see how it plays out. Do I need to draft different reps to go to the adjudicator?
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For the extra £25, I would want to hold their hand to the fire on this one, and take the matter to adjudication. Thurrock are being particularly venal in this case.
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Sorry to bump this, I'm just conscious that I'm running out of time to pay the reduced rate if my chances of success at tribunal aren't very good.
Thanks!
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Received a rejection to my reps yesterday, any suggestions as to what next? Is it worth following through to tribunal?
(https://i.ibb.co/Yf4vVC6/Adobe-Scan-03-Mar-2024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c2KzsBP)
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Thanks! Much appreciated, I have submitted reps including your comments below 🤞
The 17th is day 1, not day zero, therefore 13th is the last day of the 28-day period.
As regards your ankle, don't ignore the point because to do so simply invites sceptical readers to read into the unsaid what they like.
After the events and their letter I suggest something along the lines of...
...My walking was significantly impaired and I had to make my way back to the car unaided. I'm therefore surprised that I managed it by 11.18, in fact only missing your CEO by a matter of a few minutes - I remember the time distinctly because I checked when I found the PCN.
I do not know whether these circumstances, which were clearly beyond my control, fit under the grounds of 'contravention did not occur' or 'penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case' but in either case I request that the authority would none the less cancel the PCN.
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The 17th is day 1, not day zero, therefore 13th is the last day of the 28-day period.
As regards your ankle, don't ignore the point because to do so simply invites sceptical readers to read into the unsaid what they like.
After the events and their letter I suggest something along the lines of...
...My walking was significantly impaired and I had to make my way back to the car unaided. I'm therefore surprised that I managed it by 11.18, in fact only missing your CEO by a matter of a few minutes - I remember the time distinctly because I checked when I found the PCN.
I do not know whether these circumstances, which were clearly beyond my control, fit under the grounds of 'contravention did not occur' or 'penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case' but in either case I request that the authority would none the less cancel the PCN.
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Date of the Notice and date of posting is 15/1/2024, it says it is considered served on the second working day after the date of posting which means 14th Feb is the latest I can make reps.
I returned to my vehicle unaided, and my ankle was only strapped, it doesn't make it impossible to drive, just wasn't particularly comfortable.
What is the date of issue of the NTO?
At best you have until 14th Feb. to make reps within the 28-day period based on the NTO being issued on 16th Jan.
Also, did you return to the car aided or unaided and how did you drive if your ankle was strapped?
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What is the date of issue of the NTO?
At best you have until 14th Feb. to make reps within the 28-day period based on the NTO being issued on 16th Jan.
Also, did you return to the car aided or unaided and how did you drive if your ankle was strapped?
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Would the below be sufficient as reps? Realise I've left it quite late, unfortunately time got away from me completely!
Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing with regards to PCN TK03017674. On arriving at the bay I paid for parking until 11.01, I was attending a meeting which was due to last until 10.30 and was conscious that this time allowed for any overrun of the meeting. I left The Community House at 10:55 to make my way back to my vehicle, according to Google Maps the bay in which I was parked was less than 100m from The Community House and therefore there was ample time for me to get back to my vehicle. However, as I was exiting down the steps of the building I slipped and fell, twisting my ankle and injuring my knee. One of the Trustees of The Community House who I had met with came to my assistance and took me back into the building to administer First Aid, including cleaning my knee and strapping my ankle. After First Aid had been administered I made my way back to my vehicle, arriving back to it around 11.18 which was the earliest that I could do given the unexpected delay, injury.
I also attach a letter from The Community House confirming that I attended a meeting there, and that they administered First Aid as a result of me slipping on the steps when leaving the building.
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You need to emphasise that you left the meeting in plenty of time to return to your car within the time paid for, but fell overr on leaving the offices and had to return for some First Aid to be applied, following which you returned to your car and found the PCN. You also need to question why the council in their response say the meeting over-ran, yet the letter from the meeting rep said nothing about this. Adjudicators don't like councils lying like this.
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NTO has arrived. I'm trying to get an updated letter from the group I met with, but no luck yet. Is there anything specific I should be saying/referencing in my representations?
(https://i.ibb.co/n3RW38d/Adobe-Scan-18-Jan-2024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZ3dZPj)
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I'm pretty set on seeing the process through now. With that in mind is it worth getting a stronger version of the above statement, say with times included?
It would be better if you can, but the existing letter seems OK to me because it says nothing about the "meeting over-running", which the council seem to have made up, but does confirm your narrative of falling.
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I'm pretty set on seeing the process through now. With that in mind is it worth getting a stronger version of the above statement, say with times included?
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Where they get "over-running meeting" from is for them to show in the letter. It is just typical of venal and rapacious councils, so Thurrock can now join the Hall of Infamy. It fuller every year !
I would persist to adjudication if it were me. The adjudicator will decide "on the balance of probabilities", but first you have to go through the Notice to Owner stage and get reps against that rejected.
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Hi apologies for the delay
My reps are included in the thread, and below is the statement from the organisation I met with. Perhaps it wasn't specific enough with regards to the time of my accident or the length of time it took to administer First Aid?
(https://i.ibb.co/CPZz5Yw/TWMIC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmfxgwG)
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Yes, but why do you say they have taken your witness statement as an over-running meeting if it describes your fall and subsequent delay in getting back to your car ? Is the witness statement specific on this fall ? You might care to post it here, suitably redacted, of course.
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Am I right in thinking at this stage it's just a case of waiting for the NTO?
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You may wish to repost with your name & address redacted.
Thanks John!
Here's the response below, they have just classed it as an overunning meeting and not acknowledged that it was due to an injury that I was delayed returning to my vehicle. Any suggestions as to next steps from here?
(https://i.ibb.co/kJsFwq4/Adobe-Scan-14-Dec-2023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6875TDH)
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You may wish to repost with your name & address redacted.
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For later:
The Borough of Thurrock (Stopping, Waiting, Loading and On-street Parking) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1HkPFiq_ce_NcyznqA2j4r1nsmGOizm1j)
Notice of variation of charges (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1D4Md6XBozqCnOFIMT9r8lBBdlgDxyrAR)
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That looks good, send it off and let's see what they say.
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Draft reps below for comment, the letter from The Community House should be with me tomorrow morning.
Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing with regards to PCN TK03017674. On arriving at the bay I paid for parking until 11.01 as I was attending a meeting which was due to last until 10.30 and this time allowed for any overrun of the meeting. I left The Community House at 10:55 to make my way back to my vehicle, however, as I was exiting down the steps of the building I slipped and fell, twisting my ankle and injuring my knee. One of the Trustees of The Community House who I had met with came to my assistance and took me back into the building to administer First Aid, including cleaning my knee and strapping my ankle. After First Aid had been administered I made my way back to my vehicle, arriving back to it around 11.18 which was the earliest that I could do given the unexpected delay, injury, and it then taking me longer to walk to my vehicle on the way back.
I attach a letter from The Community House confirming that I attended a meeting there, and that they administered First Aid as a result of me slipping on the steps when leaving the building.
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The PCN wording is defective, but there's some more basic problems for the council:
(https://i.imgur.com/s8u5HYO.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8zWokSt.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/PPxfAfe.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/TI8kTxR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/V9BSIrM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/LNB4dJc.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/bpcHPNN.png)
There is precisely zero evidence of signage, so there's no prima-facie contravention. That being said, I would keep all technical arguments for a much later stage, you have what amounts to reasons beyond your control for not moving the vehicle and that is normally an exemption in the traffic order.
Have you been to see your GP, or called 111, or do you have any other medical evidence of your injury?
In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
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Obviously the CEO is blameless, as all he saw was a car parked beyond the paid time, knowing nothing about the circumstances. However, staff in their parking department are obliged to consider any representations you submit, so it would be best if you submitted informal reps against the PCN giving the circumstances, and backing this up with some evidence of your fall. Statutory guidance has something to say on this: -
An authority has a discretionary power to cancel a PCN at any point throughout the process. It can do this even when an undoubted contravention has occurred if the authority deems it to be appropriate in the circumstances of the case.
Under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionately and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest. Failure to act in accordance with the general principles of public law may lead to a claim for a decision to be judicially reviewed.
Enforcement authorities have a duty not to fetter their discretion, so should ensure that PNCs, NtOs, leaflets and any other advice they give do not mislead the public about what they may consider in the way of representations.
They should approach the exercise of discretion objectively and without regard to any financial interest in the penalty or decisions that may have been taken at an earlier stage in proceedings.
You can read the guidance here: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions
Under the Traffic Management Act, councils must have regard to the guidance.
So, if you're going to submit reps, post a draft here first for review. Then after submission, post up their reply when you get it.
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Hi
I was parked on Derby Bridge Road for a meeting, and had displayed a ticket in my vehicle. Unfortunately, when leaving the meeting I slipped down the steps, twisted my ankle and hurt my knee. The organisation I met with helped me back inside the building, cleaned me up and then sent me on my way. Unfortunately, due to the injury it took me longer to get back to my vehicle and my Pay and Display Ticket had expired. Is there any chance of successfully appealing this? The organisation I met with would be able to confirm that this happened if this is lively to help.
Or are there any issues with the ticket/wording?
Thanks in advance!
(https://i.imgur.com/Be5IlnL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7BFH2IP.jpg)