Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Abz2k23 on November 09, 2023, 09:19:19 am
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I have not heard back from anyone and it will be the last day to pay tommorow, i think it will be best to pay as luckily i have to only pay 1 pcn so if i haven't heard anything back by tonight if there any grounds to further appeal i will pay.
Thanks for all your support
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Pictures
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More images
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This is what it says on the other pcn
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Hi, so i have a bit of good news one of the pcns has been cancelled as seen in the picture
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Oxfordshire County Council, R (on the application of) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010] EWHC 894 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/894.html) more or less comprehensively deals with the whole bus lane vs bus gate argument.
If Sheffield rejects the representations, it's probably best to look for additional grounds.
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Once for each PCN
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This is what you should submit
I am accused of being in a bus lane but none of the signage used is in accordance with bus lane signing as determined by the Department for Transport’s Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3. The signage used is a variant of diagram 953 from Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. The TMA 2004 prescribes under Schedule 7 Part 4 that contravening the sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention and the applicable contravention description according to Annex B to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State is code 33 - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles.
The Council has committed a procedural impropriety in its failure to issue a moving traffic PCN in accordance with the TMA 2004 Part 4 and with the statutory guidance which the council must by law have regard to. As a consequence, the penalty charge should be cancelled. If the Council disagrees, I expect the council to layout “clear and full reasons for its decision” as required by the statutory guidance.
Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the enforcement of the bus gate by CCTV only commenced this year and the statutory guidance for local authorities outside London on civil enforcement of bus lane and moving traffic contraventions advises that a warning notice should be issued where a person contravenes a bus gate restriction for the first time. This was my first time and so only a warning notice should have been issued in accordance with the statutory guidance.
Will do. Thanks 😊
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This is what you should submit
I am accused of being in a bus lane but none of the signage used is in accordance with bus lane signing as determined by the Department for Transport’s Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3. The signage used is a variant of diagram 953 from Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. The TMA 2004 prescribes under Schedule 7 Part 4 that contravening the sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention and the applicable contravention description according to Annex B to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State is code 33 - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles.
The Council has committed a procedural impropriety in its failure to issue a moving traffic PCN in accordance with the TMA 2004 Part 4 and with the statutory guidance which the council must by law have regard to. As a consequence, the penalty charge should be cancelled. If the Council disagrees, I expect the council to layout “clear and full reasons for its decision” as required by the statutory guidance.
Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the enforcement of the bus gate by CCTV only commenced this year and the statutory guidance for local authorities outside London on civil enforcement of bus lane and moving traffic contraventions advises that a warning notice should be issued where a person contravenes a bus gate restriction for the first time. This was my first time and so only a warning notice should have been issued in accordance with the statutory guidance.
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Yes definitely give it a go if the discount is re-offered if rejected. I suggest also including this paragraph.
Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the enforcement of the bus gate by CCTV only commenced this year and the statutory guidance for local authorities outside London on civil enforcement of bus lane and moving traffic contraventions advises that a warning notice should be issued where a person contravenes the restriction for the first time. This was my first time and so only a warning notice should have been issued in accordance with the statutory guidance.
Just wanna make sure as i have recieved 2 pcns on the same date like 48 minutes apart so will this still be okay to put in.
Thanks
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Not completely unhelpful it defines an area of road but does not refer to the whole road
OP this is an untested argument you must be aware that you could lose and the full penalty would then be due if you want to take the chance and go for it I will help
As seen in the screenshot below Sheffield council are a bit lenient if i have made a appeal within the 21 days
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I am accused of being in a bus lane but none of the signage used is in accordance with bus lane signing as determined by the Department for Transport’s Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3. The signage used is a variant of diagram 953 from Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. The TMA 2004 prescribes under Schedule 7 Part 4 that contravening the sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention and the applicable contravention description according to Annex B to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State is code 33 - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles.
The Council has committed a procedural impropriety in its failure to issue a moving traffic PCN in accordance with the TMA 2004 Part 4 and with the statutory guidance which the council must by law have regard to. As a consequence, the penalty charge should be cancelled. If the Council disagrees, I expect the council to layout “clear and full reasons for its decision” as required by the statutory guidance.
I also believe that the bus lane definition is unhelpful because:
6(1)A bus lane contravention is a contravention of any provision of a traffic order relating to the use of an area of road that is or forms part of a bus lane.
(2)An area of road is or forms part of a bus lane if the order provides that it may be used—
(a)only by buses (or a particular description of bus), or
(b)only by buses (or a particular description of bus) and some other class or classes of vehicular traffic.
but nonetheless a motorist needs be made aware of the presence of a bus lane and this is done by placing bus lane signage in accordance with the chapter 3 traffic signs manual. The applicable section in the manual has the heading "Bus Lanes And Gates". From this it can be inferred that a bus lane and a bus gate are not the same thing. If they were, the simple heading "Bus Lanes" would suffice. The fact that failing to comply with a sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention under the TMA 2004 creates a degree of ambiguity in respect of the correct contravention.
Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the enforcement of the bus gate by CCTV only commenced this year and the statutory guidance for local authorities outside London on civil enforcement of bus lane and moving traffic contraventions advises that a warning notice should be issued where a person contravenes the restriction for the first time. This was my first time and so only a warning notice should have been issued in accordance with the statutory guidance.
Will this be okay?
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OP...If you use my paragraphs I don't think you can include this bit of yours
and upon checking google maps i cannot see no bus gate sign on arundel gate road.
because my paragraphs challenge the signage but this sentence basically says there is no signage.
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Not completely unhelpful it defines an area of road but does not refer to the whole road
OP this is an untested argument you must be aware that you could lose and the full penalty would then be due if you want to take the chance and go for it I will help
If you decide to fight use the draft posted by Phamtomcrusader then come back when you get the notice of rejection then we will see what we can come up with
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Not completely unhelpful it defines an area of road but does not refer to the whole road
OP this is an untested argument you must be aware that you could lose and the full penalty would then be due if you want to take the chance and go for it I will help
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Yes definitely give it a go if the discount is re-offered if rejected. I suggest also including this paragraph.
Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the enforcement of the bus gate by CCTV only commenced this year and the statutory guidance for local authorities outside London on civil enforcement of bus lane and moving traffic contraventions advises that a warning notice should be issued where a person contravenes the restriction for the first time. This was my first time and so only a warning notice should have been issued in accordance with the statutory guidance.
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The bus lane definition is unhelpful
6(1)A bus lane contravention is a contravention of any provision of a traffic order relating to the use of an area of road that is or forms part of a bus lane.
(2)An area of road is or forms part of a bus lane if the order provides that it may be used—
(a)only by buses (or a particular description of bus), or
(b)only by buses (or a particular description of bus) and some other class or classes of vehicular traffic.
but nonetheless a motorist needs be made aware of the presence of a bus lane and this is done by placing bus lane signage in accordance with the chapter 3 traffic signs manual. The applicable section in the manual has the heading "Bus Lanes And Gates". From this it can be inferred that a bus lane and a bus gate are not the same thing. If they were, the simple heading "Bus Lanes" would suffice. The fact that failing to comply with a sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention under the TMA 2004 creates a degree of ambiguity in respect of the correct contravention.
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I am accused of being in a bus lane but none of the signage used is in accordance with bus lane signing as determined by the Department for Transport’s Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3. The signage used is a variant of diagram 953 from Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. The TMA 2004 prescribes under Schedule 7 Part 4 that contravening the sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention and the applicable contravention description according to Annex B to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State is code 33 - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles.
The Council has committed a procedural impropriety in its failure to issue a moving traffic PCN in accordance with the TMA 2004 Part 4 and with the statutory guidance which the council must by law have regard to. As a consequence, the penalty charge should be cancelled. If the Council disagrees, I expect the council to layout “clear and full reasons for its decision” as required by the statutory guidance.
I also cannot find any evidence online on the portal to show me where the contravention happened as i am not from the area and upon checking google maps i cannot see no bus gate sign on arundel gate road.
So for these reasons i do not believe that the fine is payable and i urge you to reconsider the PCN.
Thanks
Will this be okay?
As long as i pay £70 for both PCNs, i will not mind if they do reject it as it was worth a go and i believe you should never accept the PCNs as then you are admitting to the mistake but i went through there unknowingly as they have only just recently put the bus gate there even google maps has not been updated so the maps will most likely still make you go through arudel gate road.
Thanks
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So long as the OP has nothing to lose that's their choice there is a definition in the 2022 regs i think reg 11 of the general regs which defines a bus lane as signed and marked using the 959 sign and broad white line but that relates to a parking PCN affixed to the vehicle can't remember where the other definition is and do not have time to look
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Whilst the moving traffic powers in the TMA 2004, have recently been released, Sheffield have long had bus lane enforcement powers under separate legislation. As far as I known these rights are transferable when councils decide to use the TMA.
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The bus lane definition should not negate the need to sign it as a bus lane in accordance with the traffic manual. According to the guidance the location is signed as a bus gate and the TMA 2004 specifically designates the sign as a sign to be enforced as a moving traffic contravention. If it can be enforced as a bus lane contravention it seems superfluous to designate it as a sign to be enforced as a moving traffic contravention. If the council has not yet obtained moving traffic enforcement powers it may be ultra vires to enforce the sign. It's a gamble but they may mess up their response. So long as the OP has nothing to lose it's worth trying.
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Problem with that is that the council need to seek authorisation to serve moving traffic PCN's even though they now can if that permission is sought. The definition of a bus lane is any road or part of a road set aside for specific types of vehicles ( I am paraphrasing here as not gone back to check) I had considered that argument but dismissed it as one to make only when there is nothing to lose or the OP is aware that it is not a high chance of success argument
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Unless you have something more solid I suggest sending this.
I am accused of being in a bus lane but none of the signage used is in accordance with bus lane signing as determined by the Department for Transport’s Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3. The signage used is a variant of diagram 953 from Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. The TMA 2004 prescribes under Schedule 7 Part 4 that contravening the sign to diagram 953 is a moving traffic contravention and the applicable contravention description according to Annex B to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State is code 33 - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles.
The Council has committed a procedural impropriety in its failure to issue a moving traffic PCN in accordance with the TMA 2004 Part 4 and with the statutory guidance which the council must by law have regard to. As a consequence, the penalty charge should be cancelled. If the Council disagrees, I expect the council to layout “clear and full reasons for its decision” as required by the statutory guidance.
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If you submit reps beyond the 21 days of the discount period, they may not re-offer the discount. You have 28 days from service of the PCNs to submit reps, (or pay-up, of course !). We don't know if Sheffield play hard ball or not but many councils re-offer the discount when rejecting reps to encourage payment and avoid them having to prepare evidence packs for an adjudication. Why ? Because if the discount isn't re-offered, it is a no-brainer for the PCN recipient to appeal to the adjudicators as the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs.
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I think tommorow will be the last day to appeal if they have sent the notice on 23rd October or do i still have some time.
Thanks
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Sorry but need all the help i can get, so i can use post 9 from bubucar from pepipoo?
So all of what i screenshoted below?
I think tommorow will be the last day to appeal as the date posted was 23rd october.
Thanks
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As far as I understand it you are accused of being in a bus lane and yet the signage conveys a route restricted to cycles buses and taxis. Failing to comply with the sign is a moving traffic PCN. See Part 4 here (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7)
(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7)
33 (je) Using a route restricted to certain vehicles (buses, cycles and taxis only)
An example of a code 33 PCN being applicable to bus gates is here (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=148676)
I'd argue that none of the signage used conveyed a bus lane. The signage used is a permitted variant of diagram 953 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/images/uksi_20160362_en_115) and therefore the council wrongly issued a bus lane PCN when it should have been a contravention code 33 moving traffic PCN. The ground to challenge under is procedural impropriety.
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Here is the close up of the bus gate picture on the pcn letter i cannot see no other picture or videos online, on google maps there is no bus gate written on that road anywhere.
Hard to tell because of the fold in the paper, but if that's a picture of your car driving past the words BUS GATE and the big yellow and blue sign on the left, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
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I do not know if this will make a difference or not but my vehicle is ulez compliant and my tax is disabled class.
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3465438,-2.9735898,3a,75y,294.9h,78.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWtPFspuniyuPsOdWvK8U0w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
This is one by me. Loads and loads got fined because their defence was basically "I've always gone that way", which I've zero sympathy for as that's not an excuse for disregarding road signs.
Argue it, as insufficient signs is a good one for getting them overturned, but I think you're dead to rights, sadly.
I am just trying to say i been that way in the past and i had no problems but as they put the bus gate recently and i am not from the area how am i suppose to know as even kn google maps i cannot see the bus gate written on the road anywhere.
The bus gate has only recently been put there
https://www.thestar.co.uk/business/call-to-refund-39000-sheffield-arundel-gate-bus-gate-penalties-4391806
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Here is the close up of the bus gate picture on the pcn letter i cannot see no other picture or videos online, on google maps there is no bus gate written on that road anywhere.
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This advance sign would probably kybosh any reps you submit based on inadequate signage
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3465438,-2.9735898,3a,75y,294.9h,78.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWtPFspuniyuPsOdWvK8U0w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
This is one by me. Loads and loads got fined because their defence was basically "I've always gone that way", which I've zero sympathy for as that's not an excuse for disregarding road signs.
Argue it, as insufficient signs is a good one for getting them overturned, but I think you're dead to rights, sadly.
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The links below are just visa and mastercard links as seen in this full screenshoot
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Nope just says to pay no images and video anywhere
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Try pressing the "Pay PCN" button. As well as providing payment a payment page, it normally allows access to photos and videos. Don't worry, a hand won't come out of the screen and grab your wallet !
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That's the thing, i cannot see a video.This is all that's im getting in the view evidence
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It's not at all clear where this bus gate is, because GSV has a number of views of different years. On the latest, I can't even see a bus gate sign. Here's GSV for May 2023 showing the exit to Arundel Gate off the roundabout. You can see the warning on the sign. The gate is 150 yrds ahead
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pEVW9j2atBkif34S6
Then you have this sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pf6jqdXRYSPJw3T87
how you get to the Novotel is a mystery as you mustn't drive past the bus gate sign. Maybe Novotel guests are authorised !
However, it's all a bit puzzling because as you get to the traffic lights, there are no bus gate signs at all ! GSV still with the same year and month. So where is this bus gate ?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fRvpf3mFkZcwjFGn9
So what we really need is up-to-date photos.
I suppose what you could do is submit representations stating that you didn't pass any bus gate, and none are shown on Google Street View dated March 2023
You might also care to look at the video, the sole evidence of the alleged contravention, download it and post it here.
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I was woundering if anone had any advice about this as i need to make a appeal by Monday, someone on pepipoo has said the sign is hidden and not very clear on GSV.
Thanks
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Just woundering if i have any chance to appeal both these fines.
So i been Sheffield plenty of times but i have not been there since start of the year, so recently in may i think they made this road into a bus gate which to be fair i would have never known what it meant unless i got a ticket. I live in Aylesbury and we only have standard bus lanes i never heard of a bus gate till i got these fines.
I was not aware of the bus gate till i got these fines and i would never gone through it if i knew about it and i did not go once but twice in like 45 minutes.
I have been down this road plenty of times in the past but just recently they changed it but i am not from Sheffield so the residents know but how could i especially when i been down this road enough times in the past.
So my questions are do i have any chance when trying to defend the fine for the above reason and can i link both the fines to appeal once or do i need appeal separately and just add the other fines information in, also what are the chances of one being dropped as i do not mind paying one but think it will be unfair to pay 2 especially when it happend so close to each other.
Also i been told the fines should come within 2 weeks if not you can appeal for that reason and the fines can be dropped is that true?
I have also tried seen the evidence online on their website but there is nothing online.
I do know the area quite well but i am not sure where about the bus lane starts as i can only see the pictures that are on pcn paper.
I have also uploaded pics of the fines below.
Thanks
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