Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Moetem on November 08, 2023, 02:11:25 pm
-
Well done ! Your persistence paid off.
-
Hi all
Thanks for everyone's suggestions. Good news!
I have resent the evidence a few days ago with additional pictures of the chat between me and the seller where they provided their phone number and also gave them my call log from that day. I also stressed the previous proof that I shared and asked them to reconsider cancelling the PCN.
My hopes weren't high but today they emailed me saying it's cancelled!
-
Their suggestions are merely a wish list.
They will have got your details from DVLA. But that works on date.
You can't necessarily achieve the time from DVLA but you still have a timed photograph. The more the better.
You have a call log for example.
Plus a timed example of the bank transfer.
Paint a picture (again).
-
If you go to tribunal the full penalty will be at stake.
An oral hearing is recommended rather than a written one. That is inconvenient of course.
You evidence looks solid to me. I would also add screenshots of the message exchange, hopefully they are timed and show you had arranged to meet after the time of the contravention.
I would also try and get a date and time of the owner change from DVLA. I would do this both via the online contact (they then reply by email) and also a subject access request.
I appreciate you can make it go away for £35, but I personally would rather end up paying the full penalty than that.
I would include failure to consider. It is obcious they haven't. You supplied most of what they are asking for.
They gave you an "out" to provide that information (again) did you try it?
It would show how reasonable you are and unreasonable they are if again rejected.
Do not let any dealines expire for tribunal, otherwuse you lose by default.
Well what they're asking is screenshots of receipt of payment - which I don't have but I provided the closest thing possible that's the time of the bank transaction. Do they really expect private sellers to have a card machine with printable receipts...
Regarding screenshots of the conversation date/time - again, I don't have any as we communicated via phonecalls.
I'll try to reach out to DVLA to get the proof of ownership transfer, thanks! It's odd that the council doesn't have that info already...
Thanks for your help
-
Oral hearings are by phone these days so no need to attend a TPT office. Other thing, is that if you register an appeal at the TPT, they may just realise they're on a loser and not contest. Councils ruthlessly game the system to maximise the cash from PCNs.
-
If you go to tribunal the full penalty will be at stake.
An oral hearing is recommended rather than a written one. That is inconvenient of course.
You evidence looks solid to me. I would also add screenshots of the message exchange, hopefully they are timed and show you had arranged to meet after the time of the contravention.
I would also try and get a date and time of the owner change from DVLA. I would do this both via the online contact (they then reply by email) and also a subject access request.
I appreciate you can make it go away for £35, but I personally would rather end up paying the full penalty than that.
I would include failure to consider. It is obcious they haven't. You supplied most of what they are asking for.
They gave you an "out" to provide that information (again) did you try it?
It would show how reasonable you are and unreasonable they are if again rejected.
Do not let any dealines expire for tribunal, otherwuse you lose by default.
-
Hi all
Just wanted to bump this to check if there's anything else I can do?
Wondering if there's any point going to the tribunal or should I just pay the £35 as it's not that much
Thanks
-
What proof did you send ?
What do you mean? I submitted what evidence I have in my representation.
From their reply it looks like they didn't look at it...
Not sure how to proceed tbh, would an adjudicator consider it or is it simply not sufficient?
-
What proof did you send ?
-
That is a total and utter failure to consider in my view.
They ask for proof but don't in anyway question the proof you yave provided.
They are saying they will reconsider on proof, it may be worthwhile doing that though others may have a different view.
That could avoid a trip to the tribunal.
-
Hi guys,
Apologies, I sent the representation to the council straight away before your advice to post a draft here. The council came back to me today with their rejection, to my surprise!. In hindsight I suppose I shouldn't have rushed to appeal but I was pretty confident it would be successful...
Please see my representation here:
https://ibb.co/ZhB7Lkm
And their rejection letter:
https://ibb.co/19M7ydd
https://ibb.co/WvxBvWY
https://ibb.co/7pbvq6X
https://ibb.co/By7yqT8
-
I suggest you type up a draft and put it on here for review.
-
.......
Also the vehicle was still taxed and insured under the previous owner when I took it home.
No it wasn't.
Tax does not transfer with ownership and the point of sale is when ownership chnged.
Many will leave notifying DVLA or getting new tax for whatever reason but you have just found one that really justifies.
Insurance is usually against named drivers, I doubt existing insurance covered any driver.
Your own may have covered you DOV.
Even if it was all covered, having your own in place is the sensible way, you are not going to be caught on way home and find that you had none.
Sorry, rant over.
You seem to have plenty that can be used.
Put it all together with relevant screenshots, send in the challenge on I was Not the Owner.
-
It seems to me you have enough evidence of the time of taking ownership, to submit a credible representation. You'll have to give the vendor's name and address of course.
-
Oh and I managed to fiddle around in my google maps app and find the timeline of my trip to Coventry.
I arrived at Coventry at 15:16, walked around for a bit and then sat in a coffee shop until 17:16 when the owner picked me up in the car. Then we drove around for half an hour testing the car and finished the trip at his home on 17:48 where we proceeded with the transfer of ownership. Google even shows the photos I took during that time which are of his old V5C document.
https://ibb.co/16J1f4n
-
Ok thanks, I'm trying to find a way to get the video or images of the contravention but it doesn't seem to be available online? Am i wrong?
The letter advises to send a request via post which is unbelievable in this age... I'll try to give them a ring or something tomorrow.
In terms of proof I think I only have a screenshot of the bank transaction which shows 14/10/2023 18:20.
Sadly the contract we signed only had the date but not the time.
It was from a private seller so there wasn't much paperwork going around and we mostly spoke via phone calls, especially on the date of sale. The last 2 phone calls I received from him were on 17:04 (letting me know he's on the way) and 17:13 (letting me know he's around the corner to pick me up).
Oh and I also have the previous owner's V5C photos, taken 18:16 while we were filling in the paperwork.
Also the vehicle was still taxed and insured under the previous owner when I took it home.
-
It may be just a latish PCN, 3 1/2 weeks is within time scale and not unknown.
And that Coventry picked up your details after the DVLA change of owner, if they did it online it could well be showing you as owner on that day.
Gather evidence of sale, anything related, hopefully timed.
Bank Trnsfer
Taxed before driving away
Insurance.
Txts or emails arranging viewing
Receipts from shops at about that time
Phone or sat nav logs putting you elsewhere
Whatever???
More you can use as supporting evidence, more chance of No the Owner ground being accepted, if not by council then by adjudicator should it get that far
-
First thing what proof would you have re time of purchase?
Before we finalise advice get and post the video
ATM it would say You can make representations but do this on two grounds Firstly that the PCN is out of time and then that in any case you were not the owner
but lets see the video first
-
Hi all,
Today I received a PCN for being in a bus lane on 14/10/2023 17:05.
At the time of the contravention I wasn't the owner of the vehicle, nor the driver. It happened on 17:05 which is when the owner was arriving to pick me up for a car viewing. I officially bought the car 2 hours later, roughly after 7pm on that day. I received only the green V5 at the time, as the owner transferred the ownership on the DVLA website next day (or even 2 days later)
Since the contravention took place almost a month ago and I only received the letter today, I assume the previous owner appealed it on grounds that he wasn't the owner anymore.
Attaching pictures of the PCN.
https://ibb.co/8D8s3PW
https://ibb.co/BCYd6Yb
https://ibb.co/Ngvvs5T
https://ibb.co/8Drqxjs
https://ibb.co/zmXkL73
https://ibb.co/Czjk9bv
Any ideas on how to push it back to the previous owner, or a good way to formulate the appeal? Also how would I prove that I bought the car after the contravention when it's on the same day?
Thanks for your help,
Matt