Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Mishek on November 07, 2023, 08:33:56 pm
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The council ended up having to pay the appellant, rather than the other way round, outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rX_T3WzMbcc3H_JJ17B0DLj0F62zGxTh/view).
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@Mishek call the tribunal on 020 7520 7200 and ask if the PCN has been referred to them yet. If it has, ask them to change the comms preference from post to email, and ask them to email a copy of the "show us your reps" letter and all the council evidence.
If the tribunal has not yet received the PCN, put a reminder in your calendar to call again after a week.
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It went down to 130
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I received an letter stating: "the respondent filed a statutory declaration/witness statement on 03-APR-24. It is ordered that the order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge be revoked. Ot is further ordered that the charge certificate and the notice to owner/enforcement notice be cancelled....
.
It's dated 03-APR-24 even though I've sent an email on 19 march.
The price on the website is still 204£
I didn't call. I really have a lot of stuff on me. Even though I've planned to. I did not call TEC
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I suggest you call TEC as soon as possible to find out two things:
1) When was the debt registered?
2) Was your TE9 form filed in-time or out-of-time?
It really is best to find out sooner rather than later, if you call first thing in the morning the waiting time isn't too bad.
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I hope you haven't sent any such form to the tribunal, TEC and the tribunal are two different things.
Please can you confirm exactly what you've sent where? Have you called TEC as Neil suggested?
I've sent the TE9 form to tec@justice.gov.uk . I have not called them yet. Didn't receive a response yet. sent an email on 19 march.
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Now I've just checked the price for my ticket FR60053578 changed to 204£ so I've sent TE9 form to tribunal.
I hope you haven't sent any such form to the tribunal, TEC and the tribunal are two different things.
Please can you confirm exactly what you've sent where? Have you called TEC as Neil suggested?
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I have sent back the correct form which they have attached, but now I'm worried if I did in time, cause I don't have easy access to the old address and only know about the order of recovery being sent by the change of price on the website.
what will happen if I've sent TE9 out of time without TE3 form ?
Phone TEC to ask if the application was in time.
Let us know what they say. They have extensive processing delays at the moment.
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I have a new question to ask the forum
I've sent the TE9 form for PCN number FR60053578
but it turns out the form wasn't correctly filled. I'm guessing they didn't read the pdf correctly cause on my side everything is filled correctly but they have sent me back the form without ticks in place.
I have sent back the correct form which they have attached, but now I'm worried if I did in time, cause I don't have easy access to the old address and only know about the order of recovery being sent by the change of price on the website.
what will happen if I've sent TE9 out of time without TE3 form ?
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Little update on the case. Penalty ticket number FR60217890 : after appealing to the traffic tribunal "The Enforcement Authority has informed the Tribunal that it will not contest your appeal against the
Penalty Charge Notice(s) stated above." as the borough of Waltham forest didn't send the document ( I think it was notice of rejection) to any of my addresses.
Now I've just checked the price for my ticket FR60053578 changed to 204£ so I've sent TE9 form to tribunal. Unfortunately I haven't included that penalty in my appeal as I didn't find that letter in my old address or I missed it, so I've ticked "I haven't received the penalty on the form". I believe I will have to pay this one.
The other one is funny cause on the photos there is no yellow ticket on the window.
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What are you talking about. You have not told me anything. I've sent TE9 for FR60217890 why would this one be different.
Soz, :-X I posted in the wrong thread. That was meant to be for a B&D case.
TE9 is indeed correct.
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What are you talking about. You have not told me anything. I've sent TE9 for FR60217890 why would this one be different.
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Well, notice of of rejection for the one mentioned. Came to my old address, and I didn't receive it on time. I'm checking on the website that it is still on 195 pounds. I'm waiting till it comes to 204 so I can send the TE9 form as they've sent it to the wrong adress
Can you pleas stop referring to TE9. I have told you it will be PE3 and you will need to get it sworn/witnessed before e-mailing.
We'll deal with it when the time comes.
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Well, notice of of rejection for the one mentioned. Came to my old address, and I didn't receive it on time. I'm checking on the website that it is still on 195 pounds. I'm waiting till it comes to 204 so I can send the TE9 form as they've sent it to the wrong adress
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For FR60053170 you have a notice of rejection dated 2 October, what's happened since then?
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Hey @cp8759
I have organised the documents
link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/156lO6QQy5lKcdNzBGbavieV_F7_y5t6Q?usp=sharing)
And my appeal
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*My name*
*This is where my current address was*
, London
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to appeal against the multiple Notice to Owner (NtO) that I have received for parking in a permit only zone. The penalty charge notice numbers are: FR60217890, FR60053170, FR60053228. I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) that were issued, and therefore I was not aware of the charges or the deadline for payment. This resulted in the NtO being sent to me, which increased the amount due.
I would like to request that you cancel the NtO and revert to the original PCN amount, as I did not have a fair chance to pay or challenge the charges. I would also like to contest the validity of the PCN, as there are no signs marking the permit only zone when driving from Buxton Drive into The Forest. I was unaware of such a restriction and there was no indication that I was entering a controlled parking zone.
Additionally, I did not find any PCN on my car window when I returned to it, which suggests that they were either not issued or removed by someone else. Therefore, I had no way of knowing that I had committed a parking offence until I received the NtO.
I have attached some photos of the location where I parked and the entrance to The Forest from Buxton Drive, showing the lack of signage. I hope you will consider my appeal and cancel the charges. Please let me know the outcome of your decision as soon as possible.
Thank you for your attention and cooperation.
Yours faithfully,
"
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The DVLA address doesn't really matter, see Natalia Skorosz v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2190347315, 12 October 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1LhhpG5HmR52OQ4vYK6vn7HYc3_2TZuIL).
That's a cracker of a case.
How are Waltham Forest's PCNs these days?
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@Mishek firstly we need to tidy up the document situation, a folder with dozens of JPEG files in no particular order is not easy to work with. You can use a website like https://jpg2pdf.com/ to merge the files by document, so you only have 1 file for each. Then rename them to meaningful names, like "notice of rejection", "charge certificate" and so on.
Then make 3 sub-folders, one for each PCN, so we have everything related to each PCN in its own folder.
Please re-upload all the documents to your google drive (and delete the myriad of jpeg files that are thee at the moment) and I'll have another look.
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Hey guys. Okay, now I understand.
Yes I would like to go to a tribunal with this one.
Yes I would you @cp8759 to represent me.
I uploaded the whole rejection of representation letter to the sky drive now
link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/156lO6QQy5lKcdNzBGbavieV_F7_y5t6Q?usp=drive_link)
With this one is easy cause I received NtO on my new address but I also have put address in the headline of the appeal.
So what's the next step ? Should I appeal on the grounds of procedural impropriety ?
The other two penalties are still on 195£ but FR60053578 is the one I have not included in my appeal as when I was picking mail from my old address I must missed it and I retrieved after the appeal so I don't know what to do with this one. I haven't got the yellow ticket on the window for this one or the other ones.
As for the FR60053170 the yellow ticket is not even on the pictures with the pcn.
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Mishek.
Why do you think WF are willing to accept £65 when they are entitled to ask for the full £130???
The answer should be obvious to you.
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The DVLA address doesn't really matter, see Natalia Skorosz v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2190347315, 12 October 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1LhhpG5HmR52OQ4vYK6vn7HYc3_2TZuIL).
They messed up by sending the notice of rejection to an incorrect address and that should be enough to win the case.
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@cp8759 Right so I gott the letter from Waltham forest, stating that the representation was rejected as there are signs on the road, although they also said what I've highlighted on the photo. I gott my v5c before the date stated (28/09/23) so DVLA had my current address not the old one.
The question is : if they are wrong on that will I win the case and they will cancel the ticket and what will happened if I lose ?.
Thanks for your help @cp8759 I owe you
P.S I also never had the original yellow tickets on the window.
P.S2 I will upload the whole mail to sky drive when I'll sit to my laptop tommo
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Allright @cp8759 The FR60217890 on the website came down to 65 pounds. I'm considering to just pay for it now and have it over with. What's gonna happen if I'll just pay on the website now ?
If you pay the council will laugh all the way to the bank and that's the end of the matter (and if later on you change your mind and want to appeal you can't as it'll be too late).
They have almost certainly posted a letter to you inviting you to pay in the hope that you give up. If you do nothing, the case will go to the tribunal where you can win on the ground that they sent the notice of rejection to an out of date address.
If you want to go to the tribunal I can represent you, let me know if you'd like to take me up on that.
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Allright @cp8759 The FR60217890 on the website came down to 65 pounds. I'm considering to just pay for it now and have it over with. What's gonna happen if I'll just pay on the website now ?. The other two are still on 195.
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OK just keep checking the council website once every 10 days, let us know once PCN FR60217890 drops back down to £130.
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@cp8759
Or anyone interested.
It took me a while, but I've sent the email with the TE9 form today for the (FR60217890).
In the Email I've just mentioned that I have attached the form as required.
The other PCN's on the Waltham Forest website are still on 195 £ so I'm assuming order for recovery didn't come onto my old address yet I will sent the TE9 forms as soon as that happens.
All right so as u said @cp8759, I'll update you when it have been processed.
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Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Yes.
I have uploaded all the documents (except order for recovery) I posses onto google drive :link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/156lO6QQy5lKcdNzBGbavieV_F7_y5t6Q?usp=sharing) if u want to have a look on it.
There might be some missing as I was cleaning and they all look the same. I think I mixed some of them with a spam and threw it away.
I've hidden the address (just left the beginning of the postcode "HP1" for the old address and "London" for the new one) as it's on public drive.
Awaiting reply. Thanks !
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Make sure to send form TE9 by email to tec@justice.gov.uk as you don't want to be relying on the post, certainly not this time of year. You don't need to use the paper form, you can download the PDF version of form TE9 here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf) and fill it in on your computer, the court will accept a typed signature.
Once it's been processed the amount on the council website will drop back down to £130 and the council will refer it to the tribunal, as soon as that happens let us know.
Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
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Hey @cp8759
Thank you, your post it's super helpful.
FR60217890: NtO received 11/09/23 on the new adress ,FR60053170: NtO received on the old adress on 29/08/23, FR60053578 : NtO received 31/08/23 on the old adress
FR60053228 has been cancelled after my appeal.
I've just received order for recovery for FR60217890. That's the one original PCN sent correctly on my new address, but notice of rejection sent to my old adress, so I'm filling TE9 that I didn't receive the notice of rejection.
The other 2 PCN are stil on charge certificate state as I'm checking on Waltham forest website and it's 195 for those 2. I cannot check remotely for my mail at the old one.
Now I'm wondering what will happen after my TE9 form will be sent.
I will sent TE9 for the other two when I'll get the order of recovery for them too. I live quite far from the old adress so I'm checking on Waltham forest website if the amount to be paid has changed.
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@Mishek the simple answer is you are entitled to make a witness statement against all the orders for recovery: the legal test is whether the document was received by you, and if it wasn't received then it wasn't received.
For the ones where you gave your new address and they ignored it, there is also a procedural impropriety that can win the substantive appeal, see Natalia Skorosz v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2190347315, 12 October 2019) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1LhhpG5HmR52OQ4vYK6vn7HYc3_2TZuIL).
For now I suggest you draw up a table listing all the PCNs, what stage they're at now, where the NTO went, where the NoR went and so on.
Alternatively, dump all the documents into a google drive or dropbox folder and I'll do that for you.
Do not pay any of these.
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I can't follow this thread
We need to see every document you have you say you want to appeal against a CC well from what i see at the moment you can't
help us to help you
+1
No documents = incomplete advice
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I can't follow this thread
We need to see every document you have you say you want to appeal against a CC well from what i see at the moment you can't
help us to help you
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Don't what this is but hey cancelled one of the pcns
It means they've cancelled one of your PCNs, so you can cross that one off your list. The text saying they may not cancel others is standard boiler-plate text that appears in almost all letters like this. It covers their arses basically.
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Don't what this is but hey cancelled one of the pcns
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Notice of rejection
[attachment deleted by admin]
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All together it was 5 pcn's. One of them I found on the window and just paid straight away, then I received 4 ntos all together. One on my current address and 3 of them on the old adress. All of them are on the CC at the moment but one of them has been cancelled after the appeal.
* I m trying to attach photos of the documents although it's so many of them... It gives me a headache. The pictures are too big. Errors occured. I will attach them later one when I get a hang of my laptop *
Penalty number FR60053578 I have not appealed for cause I didn't find it when I picked the mail.
Here's my appeal
"
*My name*
*This is where my current address was*
, London
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to appeal against the multiple Notice to Owner (NtO) that I have received for parking in a permit only zone. The penalty charge notice numbers are: FR60217890, FR60053170, FR60053228. I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) that were issued, and therefore I was not aware of the charges or the deadline for payment. This resulted in the NtO being sent to me, which increased the amount due.
I would like to request that you cancel the NtO and revert to the original PCN amount, as I did not have a fair chance to pay or challenge the charges. I would also like to contest the validity of the PCN, as there are no signs marking the permit only zone when driving from Buxton Drive into The Forest. I was unaware of such a restriction and there was no indication that I was entering a controlled parking zone.
Additionally, I did not find any PCN on my car window when I returned to it, which suggests that they were either not issued or removed by someone else. Therefore, I had no way of knowing that I had committed a parking offence until I received the NtO.
I have attached some photos of the location where I parked and the entrance to The Forest from Buxton Drive, showing the lack of signage. I hope you will consider my appeal and cancel the charges. Please let me know the outcome of your decision as soon as possible.
Thank you for your attention and cooperation.
Yours faithfully,
"
What I'm thinking is that. They have my current address cause the last of the ntos came to my current address and I've put the address also in the head of the appeal. I was thinking I will get an email reply. But they've send mail to my old adress.
I will update with the dates of the pcn's,ntos, cc received.
So at the moment I'm dealing with cc for FR60217890: NtO received 11/09/23 on the current adress ,FR60053170: NtO received on the old adress on 29/08/23, FR60053578 : NtO received 31/08/23 on the old adress
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+1
No meaningful advice can be given without sight of documents. You haven't mentioned any PCNs, the initial documents, only Notices to Owners. This indicates that the contraventions are for parking. Once a PCN is served to driver or vehicle at the roadside, and not response is received, the council then request the name and address of the registered keeper from DVLA. They then send a Notice to Owner for that name and address. If you responded on-line and didn't advise of a new address, the response goes to the address on the NtO.
If you have the relevant NtOs and the date for responding has not been reached, you can submit representations. FOr those that are beyond that date, you'll need to wait for the Order for Recovery that comes after the Charge Certificate, one for each PCN. You can then submit a Witness Statement that you did not receive the NtOs. OK, you received them eventually, but too late to do anything about them so "didn't receive them".
Anyway, we need to see the documents you have received. HOw many PCNs in total ? List them all with what has happened, (NtO issued, CC issued etc).
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You haven't given us any dates or shown any documents?
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I have parked in the resident zone without knowing and left the car there as I was abroad I have moved into new address in the same time. When I picked up the car there was no pcn's on my window but after changing adress on v5c and driving licence I received NtO on my new address. I decided to check my old adress for any more ntos. I found three of them for the same thing. I've decided to appeal but didn't get response. I've received a charge certificate on my new address I've checked the old adress and there it was an notice of rejection. I have included my new address on the appeal and it was changed on the v5c. Can I appeal as I didn't received the notice of rejection on the correct address ? // Maybe this way
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The story is a bit long but I need to know fast if I can appeal after receiving charge certificate for the reason being : I have sent an appeal for the multiple ntos received ( there was couple of them, one on the new address and 3 on my old adress). I have included my adress (new one) in the appeal and expect to get an email or getting it on the new address. To my suprise I'll got a charge cerficate on the new address. So I checked my old adress where I don't live anymore for any mail and there it is. a notice of rejection. I will need to pay 600 £ for parking in the resident zone. Can I make a statutory declaration or something as I didn't received o. My current address even though it's changed in v5c and in the driving licence (one of the ntos for the same penalty came to my new address). If not I will need to sell my car to pay the parking tickets. Looking for fast advice :/ please