Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: dbcc33 on November 15, 2025, 07:06:26 pm
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You're not formally challenging. These are informal reps.
IMO, your focus is wrong: you parked in a loading bay and were engaged in loading and here's the proof in the form of a description of your activity and evidence from the store.
Forget about obs times, what are you trying to do, initiate a debate between the accuracy of your system v the council's? Why bother?
I was loading, here's the proof.
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thanks for you input. if anyone has any suggestions to make stronger let me know asap- otherwise i will submit this and deal with the inevitable rejection at a later date when i have more time.
Im fed up with harrow and these pcns, every single prior one has been won either DNC or at tribunal, and i imagine they will make a fuSS about that again even though the others are irrelevant to this one - first one ever for loading!
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Looks OK, but don't be surprised if they reject it. All the London councils ruthlessly game the system in this way, knowing that most people then just cough-up to get the discount, not being au fait with parking law.
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sorry for the delay. I have a hospital disaster going on at the moment and could really do without parking stress but i also know harrow council wont give me any leniency if i miss their deadline even in medical emergency scenario!
Here is what I have:
the insurance BB data time stamps of my arrival 11:33 not 11:31
the b&Q collection confirmation emailed on the day in question but the order date was the previous day.
I have quickly drafted something - i want to put somethign in before the discount period and then forget about it for awhile while i focus on the hospital crisis.
im hoping the above is enough for the moment and if i need something more sold from b&q direct then i can deal with that at a later time.....i dont really have time for faffing now, ive justs logged on quickly to sort this.
please advise if the beow is good enough for now?
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/t1kp47x4zjtfgsiv9relu/B-Q-Order-Collection-15.11.25.png?rlkey=qncp7gqvgjlylx7n6sk4sikrm&st=h10tzype&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qy0kepom73mdapmy1g5dw/By-Miles-Black-Box-recording-15.11.25.png?rlkey=84ee4vvmod12cfoh7qif0c9fl&st=51gak8kr&dl=0
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice.
The PCN alleges that my vehicle was stationary in a loading bay while loading was not observed from 11:31 to 11:36. I dispute this allegation on two grounds:
1. Incorrect observation start time
- The Civil Enforcement Officer recorded the start time as 11:31.
- My insurer’s GPS‑controlled black box records my vehicle as not stationary until 11:33.
- This discrepancy suggests either clock asynchrony or premature recording by the officer while I was still manoeuvring into the bay.
- The final enforcement photograph, time‑stamped 11:37, clearly shows my indicator lights turning on as I returned to open the vehicle for loading. This demonstrates that I was engaged in loading activity within four minutes of parking, consistent with the black box record.
2. Legitimate loading activity
- I was present to collect a bulky garden furniture order from B&Q.
- Loading encompasses not only the physical transfer of goods but also the preparatory steps: confirming the order, waiting for staff and opening the vehicle to receive the goods.
- I explicitly informed the officer that I was loading and that the B&Q staff were bringing the goods out. His response — “this is for commercial vehicles only” — was incorrect, as the signage stated “Loading Only” without restriction to commercial vehicles.
- The bay was therefore used exactly as intended, and loading activity was in progress throughout the observed period.
**Supporting evidence attached:**
- B&Q order collection receipt.
- By Miles black box data showing stationary time commencing at 11:33.
- Enforcement photographs, including the 11:37 image showing indicator lights activated as I opened the vehicle to load.
In light of the above, the PCN is unsustainable. The observation period was flawed, and legitimate loading was clearly taking place. I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
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Pl post what you have.
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actually i have an email sent on the day saying the order was collected (but the order date was the previous day)- is this good enough, or u mean a specific collection receipt with date and time. I can try contacting them when they open tomo.
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and the loading was just a few mintues after the conversation with the warden and left shortly after. my by miles black box said the next journey started at 11:43 so that was 6 minutes after the PCn was issued.
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IMO, you should still present evidence of taking possession on the day. If you don't have it then contact the store.
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It was 2 garden deck chairs (bulky rather than heavy) - i have the order confirmation from the previous day giving me 7 days to collect.
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Photos of the goods and their weight should be included in your reps, as well as a copy of the payment record, and anything else proving the goods were pre-ordered and then collected a few days later.
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You parked and left your car.
The CEO saw the locked car in a Loading Only bay without any signs of loading.
They observed then issued a PCN.
All perfectly proper.
You then returned and saw and engaged with the CEO to whom you said that the load was being brought to the car imminently and would they please wait to witness this so that it could be added to their notes.
They declined.
?? How long after this was the load delivered and what did it comprise i.e. pl expand on 'garden furniture'.
Seems pretty straightforward if your account is correct and you can evidence taking possession of the goods on the day -they'll have a record even if you don't.
IMO, why would you ask the CEO to wait if nothing was going to be loaded. You'd have looked rather foolish, wouldn't you! I suspect that even if the authority rejects your reps, an adjudicator would buy the story, but you'd need some evidence, so pl post what you have and if nothing to record taking possession on the day then contact the store.
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Hi
Yes I was loading pre-ordered garden furniture goods from B&Q - i do have the order as proof but it just says collect within 7 days so not sure how good the evidence is for the exact time and date. I also have my by miles black bow saying i parked at 11:33 and not 11:31 - i swear i could see the CEO out with his device while i was indicating left to pull in so altho i can never be sure, he may even have punched the start time before i actually stopped OR there was a discrepancy between his clock and mine.
I dont think there will be any dispute on the return time of 11:37 because in the last photo u can actually see my lights are on as i had opened the car to allow loading.
The slight complication of the story was because i had parked down the end of the road, i went round to B&Q and told them look im parked down the road - can u please help bring out the furniture thre as i cant carry it, so when i ran back to the car it was to open the boot for the B&Q man to follow me and load, ie i was not carrying the goods - so maybe thats why he thought i wasnt loading but not really as hed already issued the ticket! i explained that i just came back to tell B&Q man to come now and he can see if he waits and he just wasnt interested saying its commercial vehicles and if im collecting from B&Q to just appeal.
Questions: I will put my appeal as above, but am i entitled to ask for photos for the start time of observation?? It was definitely only 4 mins according to my clock when i returned to open the boot or actually is that irrelevant as all i have to say is that i was waiting to load?
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OK, so you were loading pre-ordered goods from B & Q and the bay is at the back of pedestrianised St Anns Road on which B & Q lies. Your car was parked here, all spaces nearer St Annes Road being occupied : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Z1XiqErN8p5iBz4i9
So you should submit representations that you were engaged in loading of pre-ordered goods bought from B & Q. It is important to emphasise "pre-ordered' because just going shopping and leaving one's car in a loading bay fails the test of "loading". You will need to state that on returning to your car, you spoke to the CEO and explained that you had collected goods and were now loading them into your car. DOn't be put-off by council tosh that usually says "loading must be continuous and the vehicle attended". This is total tosh and they know it. HOwever, they will automatically send you a FOb-Off letter because they know that >95% of people then cough-up to get the discount. You should also put in that the CEO told you the bay was for commercial vehicles, which is also complete tosh. This CEO needs a training refresher !
There may also be a 'technical' appeal argument based on Harrow mismanagement of the enforcement process, incl. fatal errors in their web pages for paying and submitting reps. Our Hippocrates is something of an expert in these and has a few, (nay, a lot of !!), council scalps to show for it.
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Yes down to what was being loaded.
(https://i.ibb.co/1ty2pk5h/h3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3mLPXkHK/h2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/prfwHXz4/h1.jpg)
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As you were returning to your vehicle at the end of loading, what were you carrying and was this noted by the CEO?
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PCN IY00811794
REG LL15VTK
I was parked down the other end near the shops where the deliveroo drivers hang around
the sign is the same as where u have it tho- loading only
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sorry i dont know how to do that. but if you punch the details into the harrow website it shows the photos. it just says loading only. nothing about commercial vehicles.
Please type in your reg number and PCN number;they are very difficult to read on your photo of the PCN.
Do you not know how to use GSV at all ?
Here is the parking bay at the back of B&Q : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pa1NbLPgPTiPKrjRA
So where where you parked on it ?
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sorry i dont know how to do that. but if you punch the details into the harrow website it shows the photos. it just says loading only. nothing about commercial vehicles.
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Post-up a GSV link to the exact location, please. If the bay is only for goods vehicle loading, the sign must say so.
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Hi All,
I just received the attached PCN for being parked in a loading bay to receive a B&Q order. As there was no space immediately behind B&Q I had to park down the road, and then walk round to collect. I parked at 11:33 as can be evidenced by my GPS synchronized black box installed in my car by my insurance company to calculate miles, and returned at 11:37 to see the warden photographing my car! I immediately said i am loading and its not been even 4 mins, and he said "this is for commercial vehicles" and "check the PCN for the time stamp - i logged 5 mins!"- I said i just walked round for the B&Q order and its only just turned 5 mins now and he just told me that I can appeal.
What a joke. he must have been lurking and logged it the minute i walked out of the car and either he's falsified the time or his clock is obviously out of sync with my clock - either way we are arguing over 4/5 minutes in loading bay whilst actually loading!
What's the best way to appeal this one to get it shut down early? My experience with harrow is they take things all the way to tribunal even when they are obviously in the wrong.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dmglma5fx9jggu14ro3cx/IMG_2379.PNG?rlkey=2o7a9a0jx4tfgcrj3b56kr69f&st=uvnuljbl&dl=0