Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: yimkc on November 04, 2025, 11:08:27 am
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As said by others, if there isn't a yellow line and kerb blips within the parking bay then the contravention did not occur.
Have we seen a current photo of this bay and road markings?
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The discount is on offer so you'll be punting the extra £80.
Yes they've not addressed your reps which is a failure apart from the substance.
If you want to appeal you can simply say:
Contravention did not occur - as set out in my representations.
Procedural impropriety - the authority failed to address my representations in its notice of rejection.
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I thought the key here is that there is no yellow line that is mandatory for a waiting restriction.
We've seen this in a number of Westminster locations but some adjudicators don't seem too bothered.
I have received rejection from council. They don't consider my appeal and even not answering my challenge on the yellow lines.
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I will put it forward to tribunal. Can I reuse the same challenge? Is it sufficient or any other point I need to highlight?
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I thought the key here is that there is no yellow line that is mandatory for a waiting restriction.
We've seen this in a number of Westminster locations but some adjudicators don't seem too bothered.
I have submitted my presentation via the council site:
I appeal on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur because the restrictions at the location were not adequately indicated as required by law. The penalty charge was issued on Rupert Street at the location designated by Westminster as G1-02. I contend that no lawful waiting restriction was clearly indicated, as there was no yellow line marking on the carriageway corresponding to the sign reportedly in place. You can refer to council's photographic evidence and the Google Street View capture.
Under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016, a waiting restriction is only enforceable where indicated by both upright signs and corresponding mandatory yellow line road markings. In the absence of a yellow line, a motorist cannot reasonably be assumed to be aware of a waiting restriction, as such markings are the standard, legally required indication of prohibition on parking or waiting. The key issue is that the location shows no yellow line yet Westminster claims a “restricted” status applies. The council’s photographic evidence does not demonstrate any yellow line, nor any clear, continuous demarcation that would satisfy statutory requirements. Without these markings, the purported restriction fails to comply with Schedule 7, Part 4 of TSRGD 2016, and therefore any contravention cannot be sustained. Even in cases where “loading prohibition” signage appears, it must be paired with correct carriageway markings. To rely solely on a sign, in the absence of road markings, constitutes a failure of clarity and fairness contrary to Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, which requires that restrictions be clearly conveyed to road users.
Since no mandatory yellow line was present, the alleged restriction was not lawfully indicated, and the contravention therefore did not occur. I respectfully request the PCN to be cancelled.
Thanks again for your advice. I will update once I hear anything from them.
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I thought the key here is that there is no yellow line that is mandatory for a waiting restriction.
We've seen this in a number of Westminster locations but some adjudicators don't seem too bothered.
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Bumping up for any advice/guidance. Thanks.
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What was your initial challenge?
HC Andersen isn't around currently but I will try and help.
Appreciated your quick response. Here was my initial challenge.
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What was your initial challenge?
HC Andersen isn't around currently but I will try and help.
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Sorry for bumping up. Any expertise can provide some insights on how to proceed with the represetation? Thanks.
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Finally got the NtO from post. Please advise how this should be represented. Thanks.
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It's been almost a month since the contravention but I haven't received the NtO from post. I have emailed them asking for status. No reply yet. Shall I keep on waiting or what is the next step?
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I'll take your advice and wait for the post. I'll update here immediately once received. Thanks.
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GSV is 2 months old and in daylight.
It shows that the council cannot enforce ANY waiting restriction in the loading bays(the other one is the same) because it is MANDATORY to place a single yellow line and it's not there.
If GSV is accurate, you cannot lose.
Simply wait for the NTO and then we'll help you make targeted reps which focus on the only issue at large: is there a single yellow line?
I prefer to keep active threads on the forum because posts can then be peer reviewed.
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The car is registered under my wife's name. Please PM me what should I/my wife do for the next step. Appreciated for any advice.
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OP, their photos conflict.
I've now looked at GSV and can see that the lower part of the actual sign says: Loading only 7am - midday. In the CEO's first photo which is reproduced in their rejection the '7am-midday' is omitted, hence my earlier comment. However, their response also includes a photo showing the sign in full. They really don't know what they're doing, but what's new?
But in any event, there isn't a single yellow line with loading blips within and either * at the rear or at the front of the parking place to give effect to the no waiting/no loading restriction. The sign is insufficient and the absence of the markings is fatal to their case IMO.
I would carry on, but this is a decision for the registered keeper. Is this you and are your DVLA details current?
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Sorry for bumping it up for advice. Is it a high chance to put it forward or simply pay for it? They are still offering 14 days discount.
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I have submitted my appeal and received their reply yesterday. It comes in via email in PDF. I converted it to images for masking my personal info only.
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Any idea if I should go ahead with formal representation or shut my mouth and pay? Thanks very much for any advice/suggestion.
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This case was won fairly recently but on failure to provide an order establishing the waiting restriction.
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Case reference 2240013723
Appellant Kamal Esty
Authority City of Westminster
VRM EK65ZXA
PCN Details
PCN WE30894918
Contravention date 03 Jul 2023
Contravention time 00:03:00
Contravention location Rupert Street
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Parked or loading/unloading during a loading ban
Referral date -
Decision Date 08 Feb 2024
Adjudicator Teresa Brennan
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons
Mr Esty attended today. He appeals as he states that he did not see a sign indicating any restriction. The appellant also states that a civil enforcement officer told him that he could park his car at the location.
The civil enforcement officer’s photographs show the appellant’s car parked in a bay that is marked with the words loading. There was a sign nearby that indicated that the bay was for loading only 7am to midday and that between midday and 7am there was no waiting and no loading.
The council has provided a copy of Traffic Management Order 86 of 2020. The Order creates a loading bay in Rupert Street that is operational between 7am and midday. I have not seen any Order creating a waiting and loading restriction.
I allow this appeal as I am not satisfied on the evidence I have seen that there was an authorised waiting and loading restriction at the time that the Penalty Charge Notice was issued.
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They cannot win.
Their sign is in 3 parts:
The lowest part means this is a parking place reserved for vehicles 'Loading' 24/7;
The highest part means that waiting, which includes parking, is prohibited midday-7am which conflicts with the lowest part;
The middle part means no loading midday-7am which is within the period when the lowest part permits exactly this.
With or without lines, the sign is b******s.
But there aren't lines, which means the whole arrangement is confusing and unenforceable, b******s squared!
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As said there needs to be a yellow line and blips to go with a waiting/loading restriction but I don't think they are there.
We've seen sign/no lines in another Westminster location - Queensway - but adjudicators don't seem to care.
The sign is on the wall:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/49J9tqSn1sTPFiiB6
I think you can challenge on putting them to proof of yellow line but they will reject.
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Bump it up for advice. Thanks.
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Sorry if it is dumb - I can't find the edit button for the original post. I will post the images here:
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/u4g8qWN_xl.jpg)(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/w0Ad0TK_xl.jpg)(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/iFdehVF_xl.jpg)(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/4XSpgm7_xl.jpg)(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/vtYmgup_xl.jpg)(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/Mp7dDUE_xl.jpg)
Thanks for the info provided. IIRC, there is "Loading Only" marking in the middle of the bay (a single bay long enough for 3-4 cars). That is why "Loading Only" is not shown in the photo.
GSV is still valid (even it is 3 years old). It matches with my memory.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ryTxQiW2xy7gRoSA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ryTxQiW2xy7gRoSA)
I would agree I did not recognized the signage as it is wholly blocked by the crowd at that time.
Shall I go ahead to pay? Or I still have some grounds to appeal? Thanks again.
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As Imgur is no longer available in the UK, you will need to use
ibb.co (https://imgbb.com/) or https://imgpile.com/
for posting images.
Wherever possible, use the BBCode
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Images aren't viewable, I'm afraid.
I can't understand the traffic sign which conflicts with itself and the road markings.
The contravention can only occur when:
A vehicle is parked contrary to waiting restrictions and at the same time parked contrary to loading restrictions.
A loading bay is permissive, no loading markings are restrictive. Chalk and cheese.
The photos show your car parked wholly within a parking place. GSV(3 years old) shows this marked Loading Only. The extent of this permission is shown on the lower traffic sign with the loading symbol. As this doesn't give hours then it allows loading 24/7.
The traffic signs above are therefore conflicting as they purport to prohibit waiting and loading on this length of street between midday and 7pm. However, in order to have any effect there must be yellow a line(s) and loading blips. But I cannot see these in the photos, are there any?? Also, are there road markings stating Loading Only.
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Ticket Reference : WE6400696A
Vehicle Registration Number : VT19NGE
Contravention : 02 - Parked or loading / unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading / unloading restrictions are in force
Location : Rupert Street [G1]
First seen at : Sat, 1 Nov 2025 19:17
Issued at : Sat, 1 Nov 2025 19:17
The details of PCN can be searched via https://pcnpayment.westminster.gov.uk/pcnonline/index.php
I received a PCN with info above. I thought it is unrestricted after 6:30pm as I cannot find the signage near the bay. From the image taken, it does not show I am parking in a loading bay as there is no kerb/bay marking. And no image is showing the signage with the parked car. Can I use this as a reason to cancel this ticket?
Any advice is appreciated.
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