Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ads2021 on June 23, 2023, 12:58:21 pm
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DEpending how far Anna wishes to pursue this, there's always the local paper and/or possibly a FoI request about numbers of PCNs issued for this car park.
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Well done :)
Pity we're never to hear some Adjudicator's caustic comments on the signage. Anna, you might want to take up with your councillor (if you are local) or the councillors for the ward in which the car park is situated, the matter of the inadequate signage..........
Wot he said.
I hadn't jumped into the thread as seemed no need but I'm still bewildered by the apparent lack of appropriate signage.
It's almost as though the council is playing a guessing game with losers copping a PCN.
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Perhaps we could have a sight of your/CP's appeal wording, or was it just relying on previous reps?
As in 99% of my appeals, the Notice of Appeal just said "The appellant relies on his formal representations in the first instance".
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Thank you! Appreciated your input as well. I would have liked them to have been made do something about it so that is a good idea.
cp8759 registered the appeal for us, relying on previous reps but I wonder if his reputation might have helped?(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji6.png)
Very pleased with the outcome (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji2.png)
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Well done :)
Pity we're never to hear some Adjudicator's caustic comments on the signage. Anna, you might want to take up with your councillor (if you are local) or the councillors for the ward in which the car park is situated, the matter of the inadequate signage.
Perhaps we could have a sight of your/CP's appeal wording, or was it just relying on previous reps?
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Amazing! Thanks so much - worth persisting (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji41.png)
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That was quick:
(https://i.imgur.com/e7Qrsul.png)
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I've sent you a PM.
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@cp8759 I don't know what to say! Do you think we have a case? I can't afford to pay for legal representation, was just hoping for some advice as to how to word my appeal and whether my evidence is good enough. Best wishes, Anna (I should add that I'm posting on behalf of my partner Jeff).
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@ads2021 would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
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Thanks again John! Just to add your Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/High+St,+Manchester+M4+1AZ/@53.4847779,-2.2387592,3a,17.1y,208.66h,90.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2n5-CjPzKcbFsdsIZrcXfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x487bb1c75a506401:0xd7ef9ac2d23625b!8m2!3d53.483768!4d-2.2392025!16s%2Fg%2F1vlk13b4?entry=tts&shorturl=1) research had me worrying about the "blue sign [you] could not decipher and a yellow sign blurred out"
We have solved the yellow sign mystery but I took a screenshot (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/53092654867/in/dateposted/) from our original dashcam footage to try to decipher the blue one and I don't think it is anything to do with pay on arrival - I think it says "in the event of an emergency..." so hopefully we did not miss anything there either.
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I haven't started the appeal yet
I see that you start the appeal here
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/want-to-appeal/
From the FAQ at the bottom of that page (scroll down)
Explanation and evidence
You will then be asked to explain the circumstances of your appeal and will have the option to upload evidence. Our online system allows you to upload lots of different types of evidence, from photos, to scanned documents, to social media messages from your smartphone.
But don’t worry if you haven’t got all the evidence to hand straight away, you can provide it later.
AFAIK, once you have registered (started?) the appeal you can go on submitting evidence after the dealine for registering. But it would be as well to check with TPT.
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I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to appeal.
I am assuming this means
I have been in touch with the Tribunal who confirmed the appeal has been registered and that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to submit the appeal case.
Rather than
I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to register the appeal.
If you have not registered the appeal do so before the 10th, opt for personal (telephone) hearing , and ask for the deadline for submitting your evidence.
There was lots of clear signage for the carwash but not much else.
Not that clear - nothing to say 'Valeting only' .
Is that worth raising do you think?
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I'm no expert, wait for an expert ot comment, but do not miss deadlines.
re: the NoR -did you make reps exactly as in your opening post here?
One more thought
The sentence in the NoR beginning There are signs displayed at the location . . .
There may well be signs, but the test is that there are adequate signs to convey that it is pay on entry.
You might ask the Adj to recommend that there be placed large 'Pay on Entry at machines' signs at the entrance, and large 'Have you paid' signs at every pedestrian exit from the car park.
Thanks for giving this so much thought.
I haven't started the appeal yet, I have just been in touch via online chat with the Traffic tribunal to check that I can submit video footage as evidence and confirm the appeal deadline. I am concerned that I don't know how to word this, Suggestions of what to say would be very much appreciated! I like your "There may well be signs, but the test is that there are adequate signs to convey that it is pay on entry." - is that the sort of thing I can say - perhaps also with the recommendation. Signage like that would have been most helpful and is more what we expected.
Thanks for the advice re telephone hearing. I was planning to submit evidence at the same time but will check on deadline for any additional.
I did word my reps per my original post except that I did not mention having other footage that did not show signage.
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I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to appeal.
I am assuming this means
I have been in touch with the Tribunal who confirmed the appeal has been registered and that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to submit the appeal case.
Rather than
I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to register the appeal.
If you have not registered the appeal do so before the 10th, opt for personal (telephone) hearing , and ask for the deadline for submitting your evidence.
There was lots of clear signage for the carwash but not much else.
Not that clear - nothing to say 'Valeting only' .
Is that worth raising do you think?
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I'm no expert, wait for an expert ot comment, but do not miss deadlines.
re: the NoR -did you make reps exactly as in your opening post here?
One more thought
The sentence in the NoR beginning There are signs displayed at the location . . .
There may well be signs, but the test is that there are adequate signs to convey that it is pay on entry.
You might ask the Adj to recommend that there be placed large 'Pay on Entry at machines' signs at the entrance, and large 'Have you paid' signs at every pedestrian exit from the car park.
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What a horrid carpark! And does not take cash, as presumably you don't discover this until too late.
Rant over.
In Nov 2020 there was a T&C board at the entrance
https://goo.gl/maps/FKfbVxFcMZRwkBEq7
Tho' how anyone could read it without exiting the car and causing a hold-up I wot not!
By June 2023 it had disappeared, replace by a blue sign I could not decipher and a yellow sign blurred out
https://goo.gl/maps/cgDRzMvTRsHdBtyf6
In June 2022 and in your first video the yellow sign is revealed as MaxHeight ( a bit late as it's alongside the height barrier...)
Thought above might help in showing inadequacy of signage.
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In the video revisited 1 at 1:17 there is a mini 'No Entry' sign which you pass - does this have any significance?
Also at 0:38 and 0:52 mini straight ahead one-way sign, at 0:58 a trurn right for valeting sign and
lastly at 1:56 a one way to right mini-sign.
There are a myriad of signs on the pillar to the left at 0:32, but cannot be read without stopping.
NOt sure of the whether any or all these help or hinder, but an adj. might ask about them.
Thank you John U.K. hadn't thought to cross reference with Google Maps and look at other examples of poor signage. It really is horrible yes!
The no entry sign was for the car wash area (I think that must be the way out after that service). When we first visited (and got the PCN) we carried on past those signs by mistake as we were looking ahead at empty parking spaces (it was later in the day and that area was empty). We did this again when we went back as we wanted to recreate the route we had taken and see if we had missed anything.
This time we parked on a higher floor where the signage was clearer. I wonder if the floor we were on was really just for car wash customers, not expected to stay. There was lots of clear signage for the carwash but not much else. Is that worth raising do you think?
Many thanks,
Anna
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What a horrid carpark! And does not take cash, as presumably you don't discover this until too late.
Rant over.
In Nov 2020 there was a T&C board at the entrance
https://goo.gl/maps/FKfbVxFcMZRwkBEq7
Tho' how anyone could read it without exiting the car and causing a hold-up I wot not!
By June 2023 it had disappeared, replace by a blue sign I could not decipher and a yellow sign blurred out
https://goo.gl/maps/cgDRzMvTRsHdBtyf6
In June 2022 and in your first video the yellow sign is revealed as MaxHeight ( a bit late as it's alongside the height barrier...)
Thought above might help in showing inadequacy of signage.
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In the video revisited 1 at 1:17 there is a mini 'No Entry' sign which you pass - does this have any significance?
Also at 0:38 and 0:52 mini straight ahead one-way sign, at 0:58 a trurn right for valeting sign and
lastly at 1:56 a one way to right mini-sign.
There are a myriad of signs on the pillar to the left at 0:32, but cannot be read without stopping.
NOt sure of the whether any or all these help or hinder, but an adj. might ask about them.
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Hello again,
As expected we had our formal representation rejected but have finally been able to get back to the carpark and take some footage so we are now going to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
Posting here for any advice on how to word this! Or anything else which might help. Really feel that the signage was woefully inadequate and essentially designed to enable them catch people out like this so want to take it as far as we can.
I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to appeal.
Please find below the NoR and new footage. The dashcam footage shows the same exact route we took last time (including a wrong turn into the carwash area) and the mobile phone camera footage shows the pedestrian route we took out of the carpark. There is no payment machine and no signage anywhere apart from the one highlighted previously which was off to the far right as we turned left after entering the carpark and not legible from the car.
We plan to appeal on the basis of insufficient signage. On leaving the car at the carpark and not finding any payment machine or indication of how to pay on the way out we assumed we would be charged on exit. We paid in good faith on our way back to the car when we did pass a machine via a different route.
Any advice is appreciated as ever, I will let you know how we get on either way. Many thanks, Anna
NoR page 1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/53093153225/in/dateposted/)
NoR page 2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/53092184902/in/photostream/)
NoR Page 3 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/53092756651/in/dateposted/)
Dashcam footage (https://youtu.be/4v6U90h6gPk)
Pedestrian route out of carpark (https://youtu.be/k2ej9169IfQ)
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Done. Thank you!
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You Notice to Owner is dated 24 May, so the deadline to make representations was yesterday.
Send your draft right now (and I mean right now, not later today), or else your right to appeal might be lost.
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Hello, I hope you can help. I have been recommended to post here rather than to continue my topic on Pepipoo (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149407&st=20&p=1784102&#entry1784102) but I don't want to make you all have to ready a lot of text!
Thank you cp8759 and everyone here for continuing with this really helpful resource!
I have made an informal representation which was rejected and I now need to make a formal appeal against a notice to owner today! (I have just had to move house at short notice so that has dominated the last few weeks).
The last advice I received was to write a detailed description of the pedestrian route I took out of the carpark, and hopefully someone will be able to help me convert this into an appeal. I appreciate you are all busy people and I am working today as well so I will submit what I have rather than miss the opportunity, but any help would be appreciated!
Here are the documents received to date:
PCN Page 1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52813769297/in/album-72177720307479833/)
PCN Page 2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52814744410/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Receipt (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52814527529/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Our representation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52907249245/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice of rejection page 1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52907319448/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice of rejection page 2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52907013609/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice to Owner page 1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52925253803/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice to owner page 2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52925192415/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice to owner page 3 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52924221807/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Notice to owner page 4 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/198173615@N08/52925192420/in/album-72177720307479833/)
Here is what I plan to write:
To whom it may concern,
I would like to challenge this PCN on Other Grounds: Namely unclear signage.
We visited Manchester City Centre on 6 April for a concert and parked at the Arndale Centre car park to visit a nearby restaurant beforehand. We are unfamiliar with the city centre and this was the nearest car park we found to where we needed to be, we haven't parked there before.
On driving into the car park we didn't see anything to indicate how or when to pay and there was no machine to take a ticket from on entering.
We drove through the carwash part of the car park (the carwash was closed and this area largely empty of cars) and parked on the far side of it. There was no signage or payment machine near where we parked. We looked around for a ticket machine or directional signage to one, even going over to the carwash payment booth, but did not find anything, nor anyone to ask.
The pedestrian route we took back out to the street was via a narrow doorway near the carwash booth that led to a narrow stairwell (very dirty and smelling of urine). There was no ticket machine and no information about how to pay or where to find one all the way out to the street, when we got outside.
Based on the above we concluded thought it must be ANPR car park and expected to pay on leaving. However, we returned to the car by a different pedestrian route and encountered a pay machine then. We entered the registration number and the amount that came up was £3.70 so we paid that, assuming that was the total owing.
When we returned to the car we found a PCN.
Please find my £3.70 payment receipt attached, as well as screenshots from our dashcam footage of arriving at the carpark which highlight the only instances where there may have been signage but even that was unclear. Unclear sign 1 shows a very creased banner at the entrance to the carpark, Unclear sign 2 shows a notice which may have had useful information, but it was over on the far side of the right lane as we turned left from the left hand lane, beyond view.
Here is a link to the dashcam footage mentioned above: https://youtu.be/5siDNx2dsrc
We do have another clip inside the carpark but there is no signage visible on that one at all other than for the car wash.
Thank you for your consideration.
Regards, etc.
Thank you so much for your time!