Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 04, 2023, 06:27:44 pm

Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on April 27, 2024, 07:12:48 pm
Quote from: I-LOV-MONEY on April 23, 2024, 04:20:16 pm
Any comments, particularly about the TMO?
As explained above, this contravention is imposed by an Act of Parliament rather than a TMO.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: Incandescent on April 23, 2024, 05:03:26 pm
Well done. We don't often see these !
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on April 23, 2024, 04:20:16 pm
It has been a long time coming, but finally a resolution from London Borough of Barnet.  Thank you to all that have helped, particularly to HC Andersen

https://ibb.co/rfNwzwK

https://ibb.co/y6mw9vt


Any comments, particularly about the TMO?

Thanks again

(why didn't my reduced size links work??)
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on January 03, 2024, 06:15:04 pm

For info and to keep the OP on track, this all new to them, and to emphasise the distinction which lies at the heart of their case, parking on the footway when 'reasonably necessary' is a statutory exemption from the Act which the OP is alleged to have contravened(GLC Gen Powers 1974) when this involves 'statutory undertakers' of which the Royal Mail in one. Now't to do with TMOs

Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: John U.K. on January 03, 2024, 01:31:03 pm
Quote from: I-LOV-MONEY on January 03, 2024, 01:04:45 pm
A 'by the way' message!

I was in the same area the other day.  Nearby there is a postal sorting office.  Their little vans were parked on the pavement, partly on the road, on double yellow lines.  I wonder how many of them got tickets ?!!!

Royal Mail vehicles often have exemptions to a lot of traffic restrictions imposed by TRO/TMOs.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: mrmustard on January 03, 2024, 01:10:16 pm
Send your request to foi@Barnet.gov.uk
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on January 03, 2024, 01:04:45 pm
A 'by the way' message!

I was in the same area the other day.  Nearby there is a postal sorting office.  Their little vans were parked on the pavement, partly on the road, on double yellow lines.   I wonder how many of them got tickets ?!!!
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on January 03, 2024, 12:59:43 pm
Happy new year all.  Onward fighting the b***ards that want to relieve us from our money!

Received a reply from Barnet this morning.  They have ignored my requests.  So I presume I will just ask again once I have received the NtO.


(https://i.ibb.co/BNXhfNV/Barnet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNXhfNV)[attach=1]

(despite the invalid message, it seems to work!)
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 10, 2023, 07:47:28 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on December 09, 2023, 01:47:59 pm
This is what by default makes parking on pavements in London unlawful:

Having now had time to read the links you sent, I have written to the Council as suggested.

So, do I understand that normally parking on the pavement is illegal, unless it has been 'authorised' by the Council?

You say that the words "park in marked bays only" are wrong.  However, if I saw a sign saying "in marked bays"  how would I know what it is referring to?  If there are no road markings, how would I know exactly where I could park?

Obviously these questions are for my benefit, rather than the Council's !!

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on December 09, 2023, 01:47:59 pm
This is what by default makes parking on pavements in London unlawful:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/contents

This is probably the oldest extant legislation which applies in parking.

S15(1) creates the prohibition and s15(4) allows councils to disapply it in all or part of their area. 15(5) requires councils to place 'traffic signs' to mark the extent of any permitted area(signs aren't needed for the prohibition itself because it's statutory and you're expected to know). 'Traffic sign(s)' is a defined term, in this case signs in the Traffic Signs and General Directions Regs 2016. They have chosen the words 'Park in marked bays only'. This is not a permitted variant which is 'In marked bays'.
The regs do NOT have road markings for such bays.
All the council have is a couple of parking places whose presence is pursuant to a different statute and whose markings cannot be 'marked bays' for the purposes of footway parking.
Each parking place must be signed correctly. Theirs are not.

Regular unknowns:
Has the council even bothered to use s15(4 (known as passing a resolution)?
If so, to what extent?
Are the signs simply placed on convenient posts or do they actually mark the extent of permitted parking?
Why, if the short area between the signpost and the parking place is not a permitted area, did the council not place the sign at the parking place?
etc...
Are the parking places actually permitted to be partly on the footway?

All of which is grist to your representations mill and contained within the resolution(if such exists) and the Traffic Management Order which authorises the parking places. Hence why you're asking for them.

Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 09, 2023, 01:00:09 pm
Thank you HCA. I don’t pretend to understand it,  but will write to them as you suggest.

I am the registered keeper and my DVLA details are correct (just paid the Road Tax!).
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on December 09, 2023, 07:37:43 am
You don't respond, as in argue, their points at this stage, wait for the NTO*.

What you can usefully do is to write to them, say you will be making formal representations and therefore will await the NTO. However, in order to examine the authority's claims made in their letter you request that they provide you with the following:

A copy of the Traffic Management Order which creates the parking places in Old Rectory Gardens;
A copy of the council resolution which disapplies the provisions of the s.15 of the GLC(General Powers) Act 1974 and substitutes modified parking conditions.

You would need both of the above prior to receiving a NTO in order to be able to compile representations in time.


*- are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details current?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 08, 2023, 11:22:01 pm
As you understand the technicalites of parking law, would you be able to draft a letter or give me some bullet points on how to challenge their response - if you think it is worth pursuing.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on December 08, 2023, 08:17:26 pm

Discretion?

There are NO marked bays despite their signs because a parking place is not a 'marked bay' for the purposes of footway parking. I cannot express this any clearer. And in addition the parking place markings are incorrect.

So, the signs are incorrect and therefore misleading.

 

Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 08, 2023, 04:25:23 pm
Apologies for the delay in uploading Barnet's response.  I was out all this morning and part afternoon.


(https://i.ibb.co/sbVWdJB/Barnet1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbVWdJB)

(https://i.ibb.co/k42PZf7/Barnet2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k42PZf7)

Is this worth pursuing?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 07, 2023, 11:08:10 pm


This is what I wrote to Barnet.

I would invite you to cancel the penalty charge on a discretionary basis, given that I parked at night and the contravention appears to be minimal if not de minimis. The vehicle was slightly outside the bay and only on the kerbstone with one wheel.

I went to post the reply from Barnet, but unfortunately when I tried earlier this evening the server at imgb.com is down and it still is. Hopefully tomorrow they will have rectified the fault. 
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: John U.K. on December 07, 2023, 05:20:54 pm
Quote from: I-LOV-MONEY on December 07, 2023, 05:09:27 pm
Would somebody please remind me who to shrink documents to fit on the forum.

See
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

I find https://imgbb.com/ works well, uploading each image separately, then scrolling down for each image to the BBCode enables you to copy & paste the BBCode for each image into your post.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 07, 2023, 05:09:27 pm
Would somebody please remind me who to shrink documents to fit on the forum.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: John U.K. on December 07, 2023, 04:37:27 pm
Please post a copy of what you wrote and of their rejection.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on December 07, 2023, 04:31:06 pm
Just to say I received my (surprise!) letter of rejection from Barnet today.   The offence was 3 November and they received my appeal on 16 November.  They are hardly rushing it through.

They say that my wheel(s) was partly on the pavement which can force pedestrians to walk on the carriageway which could cause an accident particularly to wheelchair or pushchair users, the very young or elderly, or partially sighted people who maybe forced off the pavement.

The fact that they tell you to partially park on the pavement, inches away from where I parked, seems irrelevant!   I will check tomorrow to make sure that the paving isn't significantly  narrower at the point where I parked.   If there is no appreicable difference I think I will challenge it again when I receive the NtO.

What do you all think, have I got a case worthy of challenge?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 16, 2023, 05:47:01 pm
I have appealed to Barnet using part of  cp8759 and Mr Mustard’s posts (thanks both).   I shan’t hold my breath while waiting for their acceptance of my challenge!!
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on November 15, 2023, 12:03:15 am
Quote from: I-LOV-MONEY on November 14, 2023, 11:44:33 pm
If, as you say there is no requirement to have the sign for each bay - the fact that there is the sign, does it not just reinforce the rule?  Somewhere there must be a sign saying you can park within the markings on the pavement, but as I said I was partially outside the marked area.
Yes, it's the sign you photographed which you attached to post 18 above.

Quote from: I-LOV-MONEY on November 14, 2023, 11:44:33 pm
Do you really think Barnet would cancel the charge if it was discretionary on their powers?  They would want to get as much money in as they can!  Do you believe that the fact that I ask them to turn up the relevant statutes, mean they will think they can't be bothered, ie too much hassle?
No, I think it's far more likely that Barnet will fail to consider or deal with your representations properly, and you might win a tribunal appeal due to a lack of evidence from the council and/or a procedural impropriety in failing to consider your representations.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 14, 2023, 11:44:33 pm
I had another look again this afternoon.  The sign that I was facing has a car parked partly on the pavement with a red line through it.  Presuming this means 'no parking on the pavement'; that is what I was doing.

If, as you say there is no requirement to have the sign for each bay - the fact that there is the sign, does it not just reinforce the rule?   Somewhere there must be a sign saying you can park within the markings on the pavement, but as I said I was partially outside the marked area.

Do you really think Barnet would cancel the charge if it was discretionary on their powers?   They would want to get as much money in as they can!   Do you believe that the fact that I ask them to turn up the relevant statutes, mean they will think they can't be bothered, ie too much hassle?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on November 14, 2023, 11:34:12 pm
That's not how footway parking works. It is banned everywhere except where signs say otherwise. This is a cul-de-sac, so you have to drive past that sign on the way into the road. Once you're in an exempt area, there is no requirement to have a sign for each bay, as the footway parking exemption (with any qualification such as "in marked bays") applies to the whole street.

This is the best I can come up with in the circumstances:

Dear London Borough of Barnet,

In the first instance I would invite you to cancel the penalty charge on a discretionary basis, given that I parked at night and the contravention appears to be minimal if not de-minimis.

If you are not minded to do so, I would ask that you please provide a copy of the footway parking resolution duly made under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974, so that I may verify whether the council has discharged its duties under section 15(5).

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 13, 2023, 01:05:52 pm
Thank you CP8759 for asking me to photograph the other side of the sign.  It shows what was missing from the front (the way I was facing).

As you can see it says 'park in marked bays only'.  Of course this was not visible as I parked.  I therefore thought it would be okay as I was out of the times for the parking restriction.  Is that sufficient for my challenge to Barnet (am I expected to look back at the sign after parking?).

Incidentally on other parts of the road the sign which says 'residents permits only' says 'park in marked bays only', but that is not on or near my bay!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: Incandescent on November 13, 2023, 11:09:14 am
THe regulars on here are far more informed on the legislation than the council staff enforcing it !
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 13, 2023, 10:51:42 am
You and your colleagues provide a valuable service for free. You have obviously all studied parking laws to a greater extent than most people.   It is up to users to decide whether to use the advice or not.   If you were charging then we would demand a refund if you were ever wrong!
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on November 13, 2023, 08:36:31 am

My user name refers to Hans Christian Andersen author of, among other stories, 'The Emperor's New Clothes'. I adopt the stance of the young child who, when seeing the emperor naked, is not afraid to step out of line with the received wisdom and says what they see.

Same here. Sometimes I'm correct, but it gets me into hot water none the less, and sometimes I'm wrong.

Thankfully the forum isn't just one person's view.   
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 12, 2023, 11:50:14 pm
I can do that tomorrow, rain (forecast!) permitting !

However, what will that prove?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on November 12, 2023, 11:43:42 pm
You've taken a photo of the sign from the wrong side, we need to see the sign as seen from here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/zTyvLiG85opnoF5d9
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 12, 2023, 07:04:00 pm
Oh, okay.  But I may as well challenge it because it will give me another 14 days with the money in my pocket instead of theirs!
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: mrmustard on November 12, 2023, 06:49:01 pm
Almost zero
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 12, 2023, 06:39:53 pm
Thank you.  Firstly something off-topic.  Your user name always reminds me of a dj on Radio Caroline.  They often used false names and one guy got hold of some American tapes and used the name Herb Oscar Anderson!

Anyway, back to my ticket.  It seems if I challenge the ticket within 14 days and they reject it, they will allow another 14 days to pay the reduced penalty charge.   So it is worth doing.  What do you think of the chances that they will accept the challenge?
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on November 12, 2023, 06:05:17 pm

You could go with the simple(no disrespect intended) argument suggested.

Maybe for later..

The single pavement parking sign is 24/7;
It conveys the meaning that vehicles MAY park (not must, may) on the footway within marked bays;
The so-called marked bays are actually parking places and are in force in accordance with their respective traffic signs;
So, what would happen if a motorist parked on the carriageway during the time the parking places are restricted? If they are 'marked bays' in the context of footway parking, then nothing is permitted, it's optional. But I bet you'd get a PCN for not parking wholly in a bay!

In short:
You parked on the footway because you assumed that as the footway parking sign applies 24/7 and the marked bays only Mon-Sat **** then, as the time was outside this period, the markings didn't apply. If the council think that the markings apply 24/7, then why have they placed signs to the contrary within these areas?

They are totally confused; the pavement parking sign is incorrect and should be removed; the signs in the parking places should be replaced with item 3 Part 4 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: mrmustard on November 12, 2023, 11:20:12 am
I think I would argue triviality, parked at night, slightly outside a bay and only on the kerbstone with one wheel
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 11, 2023, 05:59:45 pm
Sorry HCA I didn't see your post till this afternoon.

I went over this morning and took a couple of photos of the signage.   It didn't occur to me that you would want the other side of the road as well.   As far as I can recall there was only a 'residents permit' sign on the other side of the road.

(Okay I have tried to load the two photos, but they don't seem to be appearing).

I will say that the first one shows the parking with two wheels on the pavement sign, but underneath that is a plate for a much smaller sign, but it is empty.  That is the sign in front of my car.  Obviously I don't know if something should be there, and isn't, but there is definitely a plate for something.    The other sign is 'residents permit holders only Mon-Sat 8am until 6.30pm.

I was also battling against bright sunshine on the road.

Do you require any further information?   (I am out this evening).

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: H C Andersen on November 11, 2023, 04:22:38 pm

GSV shows the only sign is situated on the post adjacent to the front of your car.

We need to see this sign(if still there), whether there's one on the opposite side of the road and the parking place traffic sign for the bay in which you were parked.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 10, 2023, 07:12:40 pm
Thank you for doing that.  It is the correct location.    Where are the "park in marked bays only" signs?   I can't see them on the photos.

I will go over tomorrow - in daylight!
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on November 10, 2023, 11:12:54 am
PCN:

(https://i.imgur.com/TGFyNCC.png)

So here I reckon: https://maps.app.goo.gl/PWrUXxSR7GfB3pci6

Can you please confirm?

If that's the location, can you please check if this sign  (https://maps.app.goo.gl/6hUVxSRxQQHKt41P8)saying "park in marked bays only" is still present?

CEO photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/qcIwRwF.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/vzIsgaP.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/7UsyzTh.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/GDFIOno.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/x0CqhVJ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/EU4kodq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dsYIA7z.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/aS0HEst.png)
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 06, 2023, 11:25:13 pm
Hi.  I didn’t get very far.  I loaded it to Google Drive.  Now it wants me to access my account to view it?   I am not sure I want to give a third party access to my account.

I am sorry to ask if someone could kindly talk me through the procedure.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 10:16:18 pm
There is a detailed guide here that you should read: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

If you get stuck, drop me a PM and I'll help you out.
Title: Re: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: allondon on November 04, 2023, 06:45:28 pm
Upload an image to Google Drive or similar cloud storage, share with everyone and post the link maybe?
Title: Apologies. Problem posting Barnet. Pavement parking. Code 62. Old Rectory Gardens
Post by: I-LOV-MONEY on November 04, 2023, 06:27:44 pm
I am trying to park here.   When I have created my post I upload the image, created from postmimages.org.   I used the forum setting  640x480   but I get a message 'Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 94371840 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 20480 bytes) in C:\inetpub\createaforum\Sources\Subs-Graphics.php on line 382'   I removed the file and tried to post it without the image.  I got a message that I have previously submitted this and I am posting it twice.   Yes, I did, but cannot see it on the forum.

I am stuck.  Can anybody help a simpleton like me, on where I am going wrong.  Thanks.