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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Mabu23 on November 04, 2023, 11:04:50 am

Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Hippocrates on December 29, 2023, 01:51:59 pm
I am happy to do so.  PM to follow.

1. Go online using the code to register the appeal
2. Choose: contravention did not occur
3. I rely upon my formal representations and will make full submissions upon receipt of the council’s evidence pack
4. Choose personal hearing after 11.00 a.m.*
5. Communication by e mail

*If I am representing you as I go in person.  You can attend by phone. My tactics are that I like to join in the game later so authorisation can be given at such time.  Others do it differently but it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Mabu23 on December 29, 2023, 01:46:22 pm

Hippocrates!


Still waiting for your reply on if you could help me out!
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Mabu23 on December 26, 2023, 01:06:14 pm
Please help me to take it to teibunal as he hasn't responded. What would you want me to do next?
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Hippocrates on December 26, 2023, 12:44:33 pm
That NOR is bolleaux:

1.  Total failure to consider
2.  "Unable to cancel"=fettering of discretion.  Council can cancel anytime

I am happy to take this one on at the Tribunal free of charge.  Oops, I see you have asked pastmybest!  If he is not free, I am more than happy to do it though.
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Mabu23 on December 25, 2023, 06:33:26 pm
Here is the rejection letter, please.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: John U.K. on December 25, 2023, 08:43:27 am
Please post up all of the rejection.
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Mabu23 on December 24, 2023, 11:31:59 pm
I finally received a response on the 23rd of December,2023 from the Westminster Council regarding my appeal. I made a simple representation as Pastmybest suggested. Unfortunately, the appeal wasn´t successful. When I viewed the PCN online. The council still wants me to pay £130 instead of £65, even though I am still within the discount period of 14 days after rejection.

What shall I do about this?

Pastmybest, can you please help and represent me at the tribunal as you promised?   
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 09:00:19 pm
Quote from: Pastmybest on November 04, 2023, 03:44:50 pm
The payment period gives you an extra 2 days to pay so it's hit or miss with an adjudicator technically it's wrong but in your favour
I'm not sure it's hit and miss at all, I'm not aware of a case where this point has gone the wrong way (at least not where it's been argued proeprly), relevant decisions are:

Adjudicator Decision
Jack Walsh Papjinder Gahir v London Borough of Havering (2180111742, 19 April 2018) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1a7yo5Hx8AbMers6U6UX9t44g_KrV0naV)
Teresa Brennan Nima Barani v City of Westminster (2230394347, 07 October 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1_GzJ5FCOY71KI-aqVyHOiUARofv1HxG3)
Andrew Harman Mohammed Ibrar Khan v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2220496056, 10 August 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1UUj1JCtIEy0XlBy3oLQmRAMKh9hdud34)
Carl Teper Syphon Mohammed v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2220717880, 05 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1rUXpmEatR4xoGwwf7cDYM_LLnERz6sCa)
Anju Kaler Mohammad Naeem v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2230108572, 13 March 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=17rqcgPuIll7-yDiwUM5Gs0g1pxS2RIMJ)
Jack Walsh Benjamin Weedon v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2230197958, 18 May 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1zHSqzQT9wHB9VdI6m_Kc0hZ4T4Gp1u5P)
Cordelia Fantinic Aldina Ronisia De Abre Mendes Delgado v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2230347777, 09 October 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1ZzWAxRPMCB7vLV66WrPUhuaZT3Fua_-Q)
Carl Teper Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230281431, 15 July 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1pSC7bdoNh1jGfifzq5_jQ1c0ewpLDdse)
Carl Teper Ian O'Flynn v London Borough of Lambeth (2230309483, 26 July 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1KU5k-MmvJrj28ERY3tvQ2mbaFmVT0jGT)
John Lane John Duffy v London Borough of Lambeth (2230325752, 12 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1-pcm3L4Dz489AglMnvyIgzLWYWEzjxtI)
Edward Houghton Zaid Noorgat v London Borough of Lambeth (2230306124, 30 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1-HL2qHR_4C8bMJ9lK3ph8XuYR9j4jciv)
Henry Michael Greenslade Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230359732, 02 September 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1semkrQw38o54RYJELbxvJt3h9nt_rbsB)
Henry Michael Greenslade Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (223035970A, 02 September 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1cSY4smwW48kGQE7nqfnjrDDFsXvFWclk)
Carl Teper Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230359721, 04 September 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1UWdKm4oRgvlKwrB-FAuMeuvoedA78_F0)
Jack Walsh Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v London Borough of Hillingdon (2230415298, 28 October 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=17c3SoDqtjkEZewpZLRWgj-8BfO8QuxnW)

The Barking and Dagenham cases are all identical to this Westminster scenario, and as mentioned above we've never lost.

I would make a very simple representation right now:

Dear City of Westminster,

The PCN is invalid because it does not comply with section 4(8)(iv) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

If the council rejects, I'll be happy to represent you at the tribunal.
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Pastmybest on November 04, 2023, 03:44:50 pm
I agree that the contravention is clear cut and would not expect an adjudicator to overturn this even given the conditions

The payment period gives you an extra 2 days to pay so it's hit or miss with an adjudicator technically it's wrong but in your favour

If you want to take a chance wait until the 9th then try to pay if they demand the full £130 you win so don't pay it if they ask for £65 pay up
Title: Re: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: MrChips on November 04, 2023, 01:45:04 pm
The video shows a pretty textbook contravention.  Your vehicle entered the box and then stopped within the box due to stationary vehicles.

Possible angles:
1) The box markings looks very faded in places, and in the dark and wet conditions are possibly so faded as to not easily be seen.  See what others think on this point but it would be a bit of a gamble to rely on this alone without any additional evidence as to the extent of the fading.
2) Under the legislation, the PCN must state:
- that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
- that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
- that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable.

The PCN does not comply with these mandatory requirements as far as I can see.  It states the 28 day period as beginning with the date of service of the notice (not the date of the notice).  It states the 50% discount applies if you pay no later than the last day of the 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (not the date of the notice).

Later on the PCN says if you don't challenge the PCN you must pay before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of the Notice, correcting what is said just a line or two earlier, but possibly achieving compliance with the legislation as a result.  However, nowhere can I see the correct statement about the discount period.  The wrong 28 day period is also quoted for the increased charge.
This departure from the required mandatory wording may be sufficient to get the PCN overturned.  See what others think...
Title: Junction Box PCN Appeal
Post by: Mabu23 on November 04, 2023, 11:04:50 am
Got this PCN for stopping on junction yellow box. Can anyone please help me with what I will write? More details can be found on the attarched image. Thank you very much in advance.

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