Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: garthwd on November 02, 2023, 11:38:28 pm

Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: DWMB2 on November 09, 2023, 04:59:01 pm
Good news, well done, and thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: garthwd on November 09, 2023, 04:45:25 pm
I am happy to report that Civil Enforcement have cancelled the PCN.

Thank you so much for the help given.
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: garthwd on November 03, 2023, 12:35:15 am
Thanks for the explanation and more so for the advice given.

I will send in the online appeal tomorrow - too tired now and don't want to make a mistake.

I will let you know how we get on.
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: DWMB2 on November 03, 2023, 12:32:17 am
Citizens Advice are good for some things, but definitely not private parking charges, much of that information is either incorrect, or so lacking in context as to be misleading.

Quote
If the notice doesn’t say ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’, there’s no time limit to send it.
But if they want to hold the keeper liable, they need to comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act - part of said compliance is giving the notice within 14 days.

Also, as an aside, there's no such thing as a "registered owner".
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: garthwd on November 03, 2023, 12:18:11 am
Please don't take this as me doubting your advice as this is the reason I came on here and I will be following your advice.

When we received the letter I thought it was out of time but when I did some Google searching, the CAB website wrote this:

Quote
You got a Parking Charge Notice more than 14 days after parking

Check if the notice says ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’. If it does, the parking company usually has to post a notice to you within a certain time - or to the car’s registered owner if that’s not you.

The deadline depends on whether the parking company gave you a notice at the time you parked - this includes leaving it on your car.

If you didn’t get a notice at the time you parked, you must receive a notice within 14 days of when you parked.

If you got a notice at the time you parked and you replied to it, the parking company doesn’t have to send another notice. If you didn’t reply to it, you must receive another notice within 56 days of when you parked.

If you didn’t receive the notice in time, tell the parking company you don’t have to pay the charge.

If the notice doesn’t say ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’, there’s no time limit to send it. If it’s delivered more than 7 months after you parked, you can argue it’s unfair to make you pay.

I couldn't see Protection of Freedoms Act anywhere in the literature, hence my confusion
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: DWMB2 on November 03, 2023, 12:06:22 am
My wife is the registered keeper and it was addressed to her.
It has been issued an unusually long time after the parking incident for a car that is not leased/financed etc., although this is to your benefit!

By issuing it so long after the incident, they are unable to recover the charges from the registered keeper under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (there's a link to it in my signature at the bottom of this post). They can only recover the charges from the driver, and they don't know who that is! Your wife, as the keeper, could therefore appeal along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper ______ for vehicle VRM ______.

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act.

Date of event: 28 July 2023
Date of Issue: 20 October 2023
Date of presumed service: 24 October 2023 (POFA para. 9(6) refers)
Elapsed period between event and giving of notice: 88 days

The notice was clearly given well outside of the relevant period of 14 days required for keeper liability as prescribed by PoFA. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records. If you do not accept this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours etc
If appealing online, she should make sure she does so as the keeper, and does not indicate who was driving (watch out for tick boxes/drop down menus etc.) - keep an eye on your spam emails for their response. If you appeal by post, do so via regular first class post, getting a free certificate of posting from a post office.
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: garthwd on November 02, 2023, 11:53:53 pm
Thanks for the reply.

My wife is the registered keeper and it was addressed to her.

This is the only notice we have received.
Title: Re: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: DWMB2 on November 02, 2023, 11:45:38 pm
The history of the enforcement on the site is unlikely to be of much relevance, but there are a couple of points regarding the notice you have received that are of note.

A couple of questions:
Title: Civil Enforcement PCN – No permit – Washington Leisure Centre
Post by: garthwd on November 02, 2023, 11:38:28 pm
Our young son attended two week long Football Courses at Washington Leisure Centre during the school summer holidays.  They were held at the All Weather pitches on the site.  The person running the courses had a course registration table at the pitches so there was no need to go into the Centre.  My son was dropped off in the morning and picked up again in the afternoon.

On the Monday evening of the second week, we saw on Facebook that the parking rules for the Leisure Centre had changed, and you had to register your Reg number within the centre itself.  There is a 15-minute grace period before registration is necessary.  The Facebook posting was from someone who had received a PCN and was warning others as they weren’t aware the parking rules had changed.  Turns out many people weren’t aware including ourselves.  Parking had always been free without a time limit.

We weren’t sure if we had overstayed the 15-minute period so the next morning we went into the Centre.  There was a lot of signage saying register your number.  We spoke with some staff and they explained why these restrictions were introduced.  Trying to get parked was a nightmare a lot of times.  They said some workers from the nearby shopping centre used to park there all day as there was a 4-hour limit at the shopping centre, however, we were genuine users of the centre.  Our reg number was added to a list for the previous day and we made sure for the rest of the week we registered if we were anywhere close to the 15 minutes.  I checked the signage and there was an addition to the bottom of the signs saying you had to register your car reg.  I guess ignorance is not an excuse though who checks the signage of a car park they’ve used plenty of times previously?

Fast forward nearly three months later and we have received a PCN for not registering the car.  This was for the Friday afternoon of the first week.  This is when the presentations were being handed out so according to the PCN we had stayed 26 minutes, but with a valid reason.

I an om here to see if there is any way we can challenge this?  Others have had their appeals kicked out though some people were offered a reduced charge of £20.

This is the notice we were sent:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5020/7Tn8cL.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8569/j4wsq4.jpg)

This is an overview of the site:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8650/8kkQ1p.jpg)

This is the current signage, which is quite clear but we are certain this wasn't the signage at the time of the incident though as I have written, on inspection it did mention needing to register your car.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/885/fu0Aog.jpg)

Apologies if this is long winded and thank you in advance for any advice given even if it is that we haven't got a leg to stand on.