Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 02:55:36 pm

Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: Incandescent on February 15, 2024, 11:38:37 pm
DNC'ed.
Amazing ! Reading are one of the more venal and rapacious councils outside London.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on February 15, 2024, 07:09:18 pm
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on January 12, 2024, 08:38:49 pm
Hi - many thanks.

Yes, I’m happy to roll the dice.

Thanks for your help on this. Let me know what I need to do next.

Best regards
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on January 12, 2024, 07:52:11 pm
They've considered the first case we gave them but not the second, so there is arguably a failure to consider.

There is also the substantive merit of the will / may argument, which finds favour with some adjudicators at the TPT.

The questions is now whether you want to carry on with the full penalty in play, if you want to pursue this I'm happy to represent you.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on January 12, 2024, 07:40:32 pm
Just received a rejection from Reading Council, please see links for letter received.

Would be very grateful for any help in taking this to the next stage.

Many thanks...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Q6ACZAbbVuVcEGiHA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6BoJ6nKoohSrMU6FA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Q72DZssg3WfJRV1C8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YnaR48Wm2RCTaD9J9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xm3ULMwRd1cfFErH6

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on December 04, 2023, 05:34:38 pm
The Borough of Reading (Bus Lanes) (A33) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1llR1QXcOZE2sXTHZkd8hf39LR9G7xblz)
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 09:59:10 pm
I was thinking of making written representations by post, also harder for them to casually click a link. Do you advise either way?
No, send it online.

Two reasons for this: letters send in the post can get lost, while for an online representation you get instant confirmation that they've received it, and you can take a screenshot of the confirmation page to put the matter beyond doubt.

Secondly, you cannot click on a link in a paper letter, which would undermine the whole argument and could make you look vexatious.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 18, 2023, 05:22:34 pm
Please don't bloat-quote, it makes the thread unnecessarily long and hard to follows.

Here is a draft:

Dear Reading Borough Council,

I challenge liability for PCN RG91813766 on the basis of a procedural impropriety, I refer you in particular to the decisions in Anthony Hall v Kent County Council (with Tunbridge Wells BC) (KU-00042-1810, 07 December 2018) at LINK1 and Nigel Houlton v Reading Borough Council (RG00028-2002, 22 June 2020) at LINK2.

In light of those decisions the PCN should be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you some links to put in the representation, they will redirect to https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1EoqML5pVDJePtRNZ11St3yHfKbSK8IuZ and https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Y-zAgsVsNR2FfYMyfTBvSCzejsS2lEaB but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on the links I PM you as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Many thanks and sorry for the slow reply - I was travelling for work last week.

This is excellent & I received the separate links. I was thinking of making written representations by post, also harder for them to casually click a link. Do you advise either way?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on November 16, 2023, 04:57:28 pm
Response from Reading Council:

The CCTV enforcement camera outside 1 Station Road and visible from the link provided is a LaneWatch Mk3 / MAV HD:IP provided and installed by Yunex Traffic.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on November 14, 2023, 06:25:35 pm
Please don't bloat-quote, it makes the thread unnecessarily long and hard to follows.

Here is a draft:

Dear Reading Borough Council,

I challenge liability for PCN RG91813766 on the basis of a procedural impropriety, I refer you in particular to the decisions in Anthony Hall v Kent County Council (with Tunbridge Wells BC) (KU-00042-1810, 07 December 2018) at LINK1 and Nigel Houlton v Reading Borough Council (RG00028-2002, 22 June 2020) at LINK2.

In light of those decisions the PCN should be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you some links to put in the representation, they will redirect to https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1EoqML5pVDJePtRNZ11St3yHfKbSK8IuZ and https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Y-zAgsVsNR2FfYMyfTBvSCzejsS2lEaB but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on the links I PM you as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 10, 2023, 09:03:34 pm
Let me know if you have an update for me. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 06, 2023, 08:12:17 pm
Thanks for your consideration and detailed response. I would welcome your help in drafting a representation based on the plan you outline.

I was originally thinking that the semantics of errors on the form, and other arguments I made, might be useful to add weight to the appeal and nudge the Council towards not bothering to make a case to the Adjudicator and owing to this, the Adjudicator would find in my favour? If you dont agree, happy to defer to your greater experience.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 06:39:14 pm
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8zi-YsN2U

I'll start with the bad news, and why basically everything you say is misconceived.

The video shows you in the bus gate length of road at 4:43 pm, there's no doubt about that.

A bus gate such as the one here can be enforced under code 34j, see the decision of the High Court in Oxfordshire County Council, R (on the application of) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010] EWHC 894 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/894.html).

The blue signs seen here https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzx32DLehwcvmvUY8 create the restriction, and there is space before the bus gate to turn around. No road markings are required for this type of restriction, as you're meant to know not to drive past the signs (it might be that you're not familiar with these signs, but that's obviously no defence).

The council is not required to provide any evidence at this stage, indeed the fact that they provide any evidence at all is above and beyond what the law requires. All they need to provide is the essential details of the contravention, and either you accept liability or you contest. If you take the matter all the way to the tribunal, at that stage the council must prove its case with evidence, but that's a long way off.

Realistically we have to assume the council would provide photos of the signage at the tribunal, it is possible they might mess up the evidence pack but it would be a massive gamble to risk the full penalty just on that (and most of the time this gamble would not pay off).

Arguments about whether the PCN has a "next page" or the appropriate tick-boxes are misconceived and would be dismissed as an argument over semantics,

Arguable grounds:

The most obvious point is the will / may flaw on the PCN, see for instance the decision in Nigel Houlton v Reading Borough Council (RG00028-2002, 22 June 2020) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Y-zAgsVsNR2FfYMyfTBvSCzejsS2lEaB), the majority of adjudicators accept this but one or two don't, if you look up "will / may" on this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit#gid=642784037) you'll see all the relevant decisions.

The other issue worth exploring is whether the council could realistically prove that its camera device is in fact approved, so I've made some enquiries about that.

Lastly there's the link approach explained here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/l-b-waltham-forest-50r-performing-a-prohibited-turn/msg7581/#msg7581), which is a strategy of last resort. However rather than making a plea for discretion, it would seem sensible to construct a representation that provides the authority with links to relevant will / may decisions, which is a much more solid argument that mere mitigation.

Please let us know if that all makes sense to you, and give others a chance to comment. Once you've read up on the will / may issue I can draft a representation for you if you're happy to go ahead with the strategy I propose.
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 03, 2023, 03:21:24 pm
Video's not working for me.

Mike

Try here, but you have to wait about 10-15 secs for the video to load from just a black box:

URL: https://reading.zatappeal.com/
Penalty Charge Notice Number : RG91813766
Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) : AF11SRV
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 03, 2023, 03:20:19 pm
There is no video on their website, the box for it is blank.

It takes about 10-15 secs for it to load on the council website.

URL: https://reading.zatappeal.com/
Penalty Charge Notice Number : RG91813766
Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) : AF11SRV
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2023, 11:09:18 pm
There is no video on their website, the box for it is blank.

Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 07:06:54 pm
Video's not working for me.

Mike

does this work:

https://api.zatpark.com (https://api.zatpark.com/display/video/a01OZk1IRXgzMWxtZFU2TkNvWGtoNEJtNE5sUVdNWjQyOTJhQ29LWSt5TGZwN3FtY2hNNGppNGozblRJendXM0V0MmJlN1J3eGRPVW1LZjloYUZJYWc9PQ==)

Otherwise, can you access the video via the council website?

URL: https://reading.zatappeal.com/
Penalty Charge Notice Number : RG91813766
Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) : AF11SRV
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 07:06:32 pm
Video's not working for me.

Mike
Nor me

does this work:

https://api.zatpark.com (https://api.zatpark.com/display/video/a01OZk1IRXgzMWxtZFU2TkNvWGtoNEJtNE5sUVdNWjQyOTJhQ29LWSt5TGZwN3FtY2hNNGppNGozblRJendXM0V0MmJlN1J3eGRPVW1LZjloYUZJYWc9PQ==)

Otherwise, can you access the video via the council website?

URL: https://reading.zatappeal.com/
Penalty Charge Notice Number : RG91813766
Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) : AF11SRV
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2023, 06:49:54 pm
Video's not working for me.

Mike
Nor me
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: guest17 on November 02, 2023, 06:14:59 pm
Video's not working for me.

Mike
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 05:56:27 pm
It is what is called a "Bus Gate" and years ago it was decided at adjudication that PCNs issued for being in a bus lane were lawful.

I don't see much mileage in worn road markings as the signs are clear, plus there is an advance warning sign. No times on the signs mean they apply 24x7

Photos are not obligatory, but the photo on your PCN is generated from the video recording which is the sole evidence of the contravention.  You should be able to view it on their website, and then download it and post it here.

There is room to turn just before the two bus gate signs using the street for accessing the rear of Garrard House

Lack of warnings of a bus gate as you turn into Garrard Street is a valid point, but there is a 'cul-de-sac sign as you approach on Greyfriars Road in a southbound direction, but nothing at all in the northbound direction.

The signs barring your access are the correct bus gate signs.

The PCN looks OK, except there is an error in the black text box referring to serving a Charge Certificate.  They say "will serve", but the regulations only allow them to say "may serve". Whether this is a fatal error, I'm not sure.

There is a lack of advance signage, but that may not win at adjudication.  Others on here may see a killer argument, but at the moment, I don't.

If you submit representations rather than paying, do be aware that there is no obligation on them to re-offer th e discounted amount.  Of course if their reply gets to you before t he 21 day discount period expires, you can pay t the discounted amount, or, of course, register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Were you using satnav ? Sorry if the above wasn't what you wanted to hear, but we have to be realistic.

Thanks - here are the videos and photos.

VIDEO EVIDENCE: https://api.zatpark.com (https://api.zatpark.com/display/video/a01OZk1IRXgzMWxtZFU2TkNvWGtoNEJtNE5sUVdNWjQyOTJhQ29LWSt5TFFjNGZHQnVRSXBaVmV6Y1h6VW15OFcyMWN1OCt1cFVFUzFrdUZOQkZ2aFE9PQ=)

PHOTO EVIDENCE:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eGYYRSIeo7IxhYMDSHj4rh8S_wxGLVdr/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nvuh8BeThfVqiZKQDr0FyUmoA3XzY7EU/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g2PYx74fEfb6Qqb9_boJzjoqy9GgTsgj/view
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 05:54:39 pm
OP----your comments on the timing on the PCN don't appear to hold up.

The Council's evidence still shows you in this street at 16.42.58.92 with a very dark photo at 16.43.02.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/f3rzsZUCjRrmbMAe7

To be absolutely sure you must get hold of the video.

Mike

Thanks Mike, here is the video and images. I dont appear to be on camera at 16:43.02 That looks like a post-production enlargement taken from the earlier video.

VIDEO EVIDENCE: https://api.zatpark.com (https://api.zatpark.com/display/video/a01OZk1IRXgzMWxtZFU2TkNvWGtoNEJtNE5sUVdNWjQyOTJhQ29LWSt5TFFjNGZHQnVRSXBaVmV6Y1h6VW15OFcyMWN1OCt1cFVFUzFrdUZOQkZ2aFE9PQ==)

PHOTO EVIDENCE:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eGYYRSIeo7IxhYMDSHj4rh8S_wxGLVdr/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nvuh8BeThfVqiZKQDr0FyUmoA3XzY7EU/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g2PYx74fEfb6Qqb9_boJzjoqy9GgTsgj/view
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: guest17 on November 02, 2023, 05:13:21 pm
OP----your comments on the timing on the PCN don't appear to hold up.

The Council's evidence still shows you in this street at 16.42.58.92 with a very dark photo at 16.43.02.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/f3rzsZUCjRrmbMAe7

To be absolutely sure you must get hold of the video.

Mike
Title: Re: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2023, 03:48:57 pm
It is what is called a "Bus Gate" and years ago it was decided at adjudication that PCNs issued for being in a bus lane were lawful.

I don't see much mileage in worn road markings as the signs are clear, plus there is an advance warning sign. No times on the signs mean they apply 24x7

Photos are not obligatory, but the photo on your PCN is generated from the video recording which is the sole evidence of the contravention.  You should be able to view it on their website, and then download it and post it here.

There is room to turn just before the two bus gate signs using the street for accessing the rear of Garrard House

Lack of warnings of a bus gate as you turn into Garrard Street is a valid point, but there is a 'cul-de-sac sign as you approach on Greyfriars Road in a southbound direction, but nothing at all in the northbound direction.

The signs barring your access are the correct bus gate signs.

The PCN looks OK, except there is an error in the black text box referring to serving a Charge Certificate.  They say "will serve", but the regulations only allow them to say "may serve". Whether this is a fatal error, I'm not sure.

There is a lack of advance signage, but that may not win at adjudication.  Others on here may see a killer argument, but at the moment, I don't.

If you submit representations rather than paying, do be aware that there is no obligation on them to re-offer th e discounted amount.  Of course if their reply gets to you before t he 21 day discount period expires, you can pay t the discounted amount, or, of course, register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Were you using satnav ? Sorry if the above wasn't what you wanted to hear, but we have to be realistic.


Title: Reading Borough Council - 'Being in a bus lane' - Garrard Street
Post by: mg82 on November 02, 2023, 02:55:36 pm
Hi All, hope you can help me out with this one as it doesn't feel right.

I was driving in bad weather and following satnav, not a defence I know, but my actions weren't deliberate.

I was approaching the rail station along Garrard Street (eastbound direction), and exited across the red brick road onto Station Road - where the 'bus lane' / authorised vehicles section is.

I just got the PCN a few days ago, and would like to build a defence in the representations and then if these are rejected, take it to the adjudicator.

Things that feel wrong about this:

1. Timestamp error on the photo vs the PCN. All the camera footage (except the weird black and white one) show 16:42, but the PCN states 16:43.
2. No bus lane (just authorised traffic) although the contravention is for being a bus lane.
3. The Road markings are incomplete and worn.
4. No actual evidence of the contravention, ie no accompanying photos of signs, times of operation, etc - or me driving through them.
5. No space for turning to avoid the bus and taxi road, and no warnings further up the street.
6. Are the road signs correct? There is a lot of debate on here about that, but I would like to hear whether they are in your opinion.
7. The PCN has a number of errors:
a) Mentions a Tick Box for the representations (A-G), but no tick box provided.
b) Mixed terminology - says ' OTHER GROUNDS', then the box you enter the representation into says 'Other Representations'.
c) 'Other Grounds' refers to 'set out those reasons in full in the box on the following page'. There is no next page, just the box below.


Would really appreciate any help in disqualifying, or refining these and making them into a reasonable representation. Or help with signs or anything that aids my case.

Thanks!

VIDEO EVIDENCE: https://api.zatpark.com (https://api.zatpark.com/display/video/a01OZk1IRXgzMWxtZFU2TkNvWGtoNEJtNE5sUVdNWjQyOTJhQ29LWSt5TFFjNGZHQnVRSXBaVmV6Y1h6VW15OFcyMWN1OCt1cFVFUzFrdUZOQkZ2aFE9PQ==)

PHOTO EVIDENCE:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eGYYRSIeo7IxhYMDSHj4rh8S_wxGLVdr/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nvuh8BeThfVqiZKQDr0FyUmoA3XzY7EU/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g2PYx74fEfb6Qqb9_boJzjoqy9GgTsgj/view

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3JGXWJfLTH1JnmhN7

PCN: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gsbPvJlU-9gb4XJ3FD6V7vQ-s6aP7jX7/view

PCN: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n9yWuURntYvnrXWMKMGP2BWzHA4AN7VH/view

Maps: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PQiUQDd3WGmrzlARi1PEB3L4lr6a_omm/view

Small camera sign: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14sKsamRSH3SUpl4tgSeHvhpglDecYKO1/view

View of bus lane 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oCl__r_Cr2PhidhzJyXbcMMmnEX2be1f/view

View of bus lane 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qJg3Zrh1oMJsKvmm6iM0tXsk33S-Vf7D/view

Looking back down the road: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vi73UuTbciVQuVqDmRKnzcAK1YfFpWgz/view