Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: swooph on November 01, 2023, 08:22:30 pm

Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on February 22, 2024, 01:44:11 am
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
This appeal is listed for personal hearing later today.

The hearing will not now take place the council not providing its evidence there thus being no case for the appellant to answer.

The appeal is allowed.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on February 20, 2024, 10:22:46 am
Columbo:  "The good news, sir, is that you won your case.  The bad news, sir, is that your representative will not be attending Penderel's Oak!"  (For the time being as a costs application is in the making in view of their total failure to consider and not  even having the courtesy to issue a DNC!)
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on February 19, 2024, 12:34:16 pm
Still no evidence.  Hearing is tomorrow. I do not wish to miss yet another Penederel's Oak appointment. Already missed two this week.  ;)
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on February 13, 2024, 04:46:18 pm
No evidence as of yet from them.

To simplify:  they cannot serve a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the notice.

Even if they send their evidence in late, I may as well continue as there is no value in an adjournment.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on December 26, 2023, 10:15:33 am
PM sent with offer to represent.  Further, no "mitigation" was offered!  Copy and paste job.

Game on, I believe.  Molon lave, Haringey.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Hippocrates on December 24, 2023, 10:39:09 am
That NOR demonstrates a total failure to consider the technical ground.  "Carefully considered"!

I am happy to take this one on at the Tribunal for free. Please PM me if you want to accept my offer and we can start the ball rolling.

Below is one of my cases on this exact point:



Case Details
Case reference 2230075597
Appellant
Authority London Borough of Lambeth
VRM
PCN Details
PCN
Contravention date 02 Oct 2022
Contravention time 11:21:00
Contravention location Kennington Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane
Referral date
Decision Date 23 Feb 2023
Adjudicator Gerald Styles
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons
The hearing appointed for 23 February was in a sense "hybrid" as the Council's representative Mr Charles presented the Council case by telephone on speaker whereas Mr  the appellant accompanied by his representative Mr Morgan were face to face with the Adjudicator.
The appellant representations against the enforcement notice were handwritten and in substance read "You have failed to engage the substance of my initial challenge. The camera has been ruled upon by Mr Carl Teper to have no Home Office Type Approval and costs have been awarded. Evidence is inadmissible please do not waste mine and your time or that of a Tribunal. The PM has been clear a fine should not be issued for instances of bus lane on first time. Your signage was unclear and the rules only recently changed for motorbikes. This was unclear. Mr Stanton Dunne's decision in Davy Duthiew v. London Borough of Ealing No 2220486482 corroborates all previous decisions made by several senior adjudicators concerning the issue of Home Office Type Approval."

Mr  addressed me during the hearing regarding the adequacy of the Council's response to those representations that is to say its notice of rejection dated 29 December 2022. In my view that notice of rejection fairly summarised information relevant to signage. Importantly in my view in respect of admissibility and approval of equipment it however effectively said nothing.

Mr Charles correctly pointed out the letter began by stating "We have carefully considered what you say but have decided not cancel your Penalty Charge Notice". There is also a passage in the notice of rejection about the motorist's comments being noted but not warranting cancellation. "Umbrella" phrases, stock phrase examples, do not necessarily invalidate a notice of rejection but there is a need for something else as well to show particular representations have actually been considered, not just repetition of stock phrases.

Adjudicators in this tribunal frequently and correctly comment that notices of rejection need not cover each and every point made in representations. What is required is something showing that at least major representations amongst what a motorist has written have been duly considered. Length in dealing with major aspects of representations may not be required. Sufficiency in this context is generally viewed by Adjudicators as a matter of fact and degree.

The notice of rejection in this case is in my decision so incomplete a response to readily identified major issues raised that it does not illustrate or correspond in a demonstrable way with the Council's legal duty to consider representations received.

I have decided to allow the appeal on that sole point.

I am making no findings in relation to primary facts in this case or for that matter ruling on equipment used by the Council in connection with it.

Authority Response
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on December 24, 2023, 01:02:38 am
Hello all.  It had been a while since I followed cp's advice and heard nothing back so was about to jump back on here and find out what that meant, and then this morning, the following arrived - a rejection of representations.  I've attached it below.

Also included in the letter is a London Tribunals Notice of Appeal form (not embedded here).

If anyone has any advice on insight to the the options or steps from here I would be most grateful.

Thanks everyone and Happy Christmas


(https://i.imgur.com/OaPl5wY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bNeuBeD.jpeg)
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: cp8759 on November 12, 2023, 11:34:19 pm
@swooph the draft starts with "Dear London Borough of Haringey", which is meant to be the clue that you need to send it to Haringey, I have no idea why you'd think of sending it to the tribunal?

The website to make representations is https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/ and don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation page.

If the council issues a notice of rejection, we can then look at whether you should appeal to the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 08, 2023, 08:34:23 pm
Apologies for bumping this.  Just want to make sure i make the correct next step in time.

thank you
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 06, 2023, 11:02:40 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on November 06, 2023, 01:16:01 am
Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

I bring a collateral challenge against this PCN, on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(8)(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

It follows that the penalty charge notice is invalid and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Don't worry about the tribunal stage, one of us will offer to act as your representative. This sort of technical appeal is really not suited for a DIY appeal.

Thank you for this.  Shall I start the appeal immediately?  ON the appeal option on the Tribinal site it states: Make an appeal
You must challenge the penalty charge and receive a Notice of Rejection letter from the issuing authority before you appeal.

#so do i need to do that first?
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 06, 2023, 10:58:19 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on November 05, 2023, 11:45:20 pm
London Tribunals link: -
http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

Your PCN is issued under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. As far as I can see, there is no requirement for a PCN issued under that Act to outline the adjudication process at all. As far as I know, if an authority rejects representations against an LLA & TFL Act 2003 PCN, the procedure for appealing to the adjudicators will be included in that. The Secretary of State has the power to introduced regulations related to the issue and enforcement of PCNs under the Act but has never done so.

So you are of the opinion the PCN is valid based on the authority not being required to outline a process?
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: cp8759 on November 06, 2023, 01:16:01 am
Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

I bring a collateral challenge against this PCN, on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(8)(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

It follows that the penalty charge notice is invalid and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Don't worry about the tribunal stage, one of us will offer to act as your representative. This sort of technical appeal is really not suited for a DIY appeal.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Incandescent on November 05, 2023, 11:45:20 pm
London Tribunals link: -
http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

Your PCN is issued under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. As far as I can see, there is no requirement for a PCN issued under that Act to outline the adjudication process at all. As far as I know, if an authority rejects representations against an LLA & TFL Act 2003 PCN, the procedure for appealing to the adjudicators will be included in that. The Secretary of State has the power to introduced regulations related to the issue and enforcement of PCNs under the Act but has never done so.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 05, 2023, 10:36:05 pm
Quote from: Pastmybest on November 05, 2023, 09:33:42 pm
The PCN says that if the PCN is not paid before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice in this case this would be the 26th of November.

The regulations dictate that they may serve a PCN 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice in this case the 28th of November 2 days later this error will render the PCN unenforceable but you will have to take it to the tribunal

Thank you, I appreciate your time looking at this.   Could you kindly explain that a little further?   I make 30/10/23 +28 days yo to be 27th November. But your second sentence refers to the date of SERVICE - the date i received it? so their regulations dictate date i received it + 28 days AKA 28th November?

Finally, I'm new to the idea of the tribunal and the PCN doesn't say anything about that does it?  Is there a link in here for further guidance on how i go about it please?

Thank you all for your time and effort.

Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Pastmybest on November 05, 2023, 09:33:42 pm
The PCN says that if the PCN is not paid before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice in this case this would be the 26th of November.

The regulations dictate that they may serve a PCN 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice in this case the 28th of November 2 days later this error will render the PCN unenforceable but you will have to take it to the tribunal
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 05, 2023, 09:12:46 pm
Not sure why i had trouble with the images, i followed the steps.

appreciate it thank you. 
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 08:16:39 pm
swooph I've fixed your post above.

Pastmybest I can see what you mean, I agree and I'll let you explain.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 04, 2023, 03:32:51 pm
trying again

(https://i.imgur.com/tbzrQuD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZScD3dD.jpg)
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Pastmybest on November 04, 2023, 03:25:47 pm
post the PCN right way up I think there is a flaw but can't be sure until i can read it properly
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 04, 2023, 02:56:31 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on November 02, 2023, 12:23:06 am
The Haringey (Moving Traffic Restrictions) (No.14) Experimental Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=16d4iqs1E3DLHRFdpjMIml5s8S--VfWVC).

i see in that doc:  Schedule 3 – Prohibition of Motor Vehicles except for local buses and permit holder ‘X3A’ (see article
20(c))
Road Location
Downhills Park Road N17 at a point 20.5 metres east of the eastern kerb line of Walpole Road, east for
43.5 metres.

That might be the spot, unsure. So they've made changes to the roads and I've not clocked it?

if this is the case, is there anything i can do to fight it? 
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 02, 2023, 03:41:44 pm
PCN attached hopefully

(https://i.ibb.co/7SR8LGD/PXL-20231102-144903014.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/S6brrtt/PXL-20231102-152523399.jpg)
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: John U.K. on November 02, 2023, 03:11:58 pm
Quote
Well there's a further photo of the number plate which is mine, they upped the contrast etc and zoomed in, so it's heavily altered to show the number plate which is mine.

We still need to see all sides of the PCN (only redact your name & address), all the council photos (including this one) and a GSV link to the location. Please read
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
for guidance.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 02, 2023, 02:55:46 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on November 02, 2023, 01:04:40 am
Quote
I have no recollection of being on a road outside my normal routes, but the zoomed and heavily altered image puts my car reg there.
But is it your car ? You seem doubtful as to how you came to be driving along this street. It could be a numberplate misread.
Their sole evidence of the alleged contravention is a video, so you and we need to see it to make sure it really is your car.

By the way, as I posted on Pepipoo, you seem to not know the meaning of the signs, so you need to get rapidly up-to-speed on these particular signs that are proliferating all over London. They are the equal of "No Entry" signs for a normal motorist.

Well there's a further photo of the number plate which is mine, they upped the contrast etc and zoomed in, so it's heavily altered to show the number plate which is mine.  It's less that I can't read signs, and more that any roads I might've used that day I've used as far back as i can remember, hence my surprise at receiving a notice through.  If something has recently changed on that road I might not have noticed, I'm unsure.  Will post the full PCN in a sec.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: Incandescent on November 02, 2023, 01:04:40 am
Quote
I have no recollection of being on a road outside my normal routes, but the zoomed and heavily altered image puts my car reg there.
But is it your car ? You seem doubtful as to how you came to be driving along this street. It could be a numberplate misread.
Their sole evidence of the alleged contravention is a video, so you and we need to see it to make sure it really is your car.

By the way, as I posted on Pepipoo, you seem to not know the meaning of the signs, so you need to get rapidly up-to-speed on these particular signs that are proliferating all over London. They are the equal of "No Entry" signs for a normal motorist.
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: cp8759 on November 02, 2023, 12:23:06 am
The Haringey (Moving Traffic Restrictions) (No.14) Experimental Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=16d4iqs1E3DLHRFdpjMIml5s8S--VfWVC).
Title: Re: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 11:20:43 pm
Please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on posting images, and then post up all sides of all pages of the PCN.
Title: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Post by: swooph on November 01, 2023, 08:22:30 pm
Hi guys. Hope this is in the right place of the forum...


I got this PCN through today - date of notice 30/10

52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)
The vehicle was seen in: Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound) (X3A) At: 10:17 On: 15/10/2023
This alleged contravention was seen and recorded by an unattended road side camera Ua132 at the time stated.


I have no recollection of being on a road outside my normal routes, but the zoomed and heavily altered image puts my car reg there. regardless, have i just wondered into a no vehicle zone there?  Is there anything i can do?

any help or guidance always appreciated

thank you all, as ever.

[attachment deleted by admin]