Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Needadvice on October 05, 2025, 10:03:12 am
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I just logged in and if you select appeal information it takes you to an appeal page?
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You need to draft something in your own words about the sign issue. As it stands their pic is what they'll show the adjudicator so you need to get ducks in a row to back up your case.
@stamfordman, I am trying to submit my formal representation, but can’t find where and how to do it. The notice to owner mentions that there is a separate sheet to consult to fo the representations but there was no separate sheet enclosed. Is there a website I can go onto to submit my representation online? The Bromley council/parking link opens up the page with the council’s evidence and option to appeal again but no option to submit representation. The notice to owner also provides a postal address but it’s impractical in this case as I need to attach my photo and video evidence and I need to have some tracking opportunity. Please can you advise how to go about submitting my representations correctly? Thank you in advance.
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You need to draft something in your own words about the sign issue. As it stands their pic is what they'll show the adjudicator so you need to get ducks in a row to back up your case.
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Hello,
@stamfordman, I received a Notice to Owner (NTO) today and would be grateful if you could advise on the best course of action.
I intend to make formal representations and would like to ensure I follow the correct procedure. Please could you advise whether there is a standard format or specific points I should address to make sure my representation is submitted properly?
here are the letter images:
https://ibb.co/B5bdG59X
https://ibb.co/CKstzQHz
https://ibb.co/1fwjgV9j
Thank you very much
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Thank you. If there is a chance to get this PCN cancelled, I’d like to appeal. The logbook has the correct address.
Thank you for responding, will wait for the nto.
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If you're going on with it wait for the NTO and post it then. If you want to bail out at discount pay it if still available.
Is the logbook up to date with correct address.
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Thank you, Stamfordman, I would be happy to get a chance to fight this ticket. How would I proceed with the appeal? Would you be able to advise please?
@stamfordman, hello, would you be able to advise on the protocol for the NtO stage, and how to argue the bad signage (relevant law etc) or please point to the right place to get more info on that, as I tried to search in the pinned posts and couldn’t find it. Thank you very much
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Thank you, Stamfordman, I would be happy to get a chance to fight this ticket. How would I proceed with the appeal? Would you be able to advise please?
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I think you have enough to put doubt in the mind of an adjudicator that the parking place was properly signed at the time.
But the next stage is an NTO and another go at the council. At most you'd be punting £45, and if they reject again they may well reoffer the discount as it would cost them a good part of that to contest an appeal.
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I am considering to write a complaint letter to the council about this.
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The sign was installed recently, approximately two weeks before the incident. It is very poorly maintained. I have observed it over the past few weeks and it remains in poor condition; even yesterday it was still turned away, suggesting that it is being moved or rotated regularly.
Regarding the bay markings, they are quite faint. I parked across two bays because that was where space was available between the cars already parked. Do you think I still have grounds to appeal, or would this be difficult to prove, as the other expert suggested?
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The bay markings are in poor shape and from Maps view last May it looks the parking sign was missing.
Are you saying someone turned the sign back after the CEO put it the right way? Although you don't know for sure it was the wrong way to start with.
I think you have a good case if as it seems someone is messing with the sign, plus the markings are poorly maintained. It looks like you are straddling a double divider too.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pBEA7wvZHKLcfqkV8
(https://i.ibb.co/608Gx3wR/br5.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpJFjJTL/br4.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/23RSMpXd/br3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZpMSSVwL/br2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tx9NTRys/br1.jpg)
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Thank you for your advice. Fair point. However why then they turned the sign to the traffic side to take photos gor the evidence. To be honest, I’ve never seen traffic/parking signs facing pavements. When we approach with an intention to park, before getting out of the car drivers usually look out from their car to see whether ok or not to park. I get the point that I should be getting out and searching for the signs since it’s a parking bay, but why can’t it be clearly visible from approach, so I would just move past if I don’t want to pay for parking or park and pay, which most of us do when it’s required all the time. It’s a very interesting sign display strategy.thank you very much for explaining that it will be close to impossible to argue in this way.
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The markings indicate that this is a parking place. The obligations on a motorist are to look for a regulatory sign and comply with its requirements.
I'm sorry, but any driver who parks in a parking place and doesn't make any reasonable effort to discover the restriction is asking for trouble. Most motorists exiting their car on the traffic as opposed to pavement side are not likely to walk in traffic to look for a forward facing sign. They'd go to the pavement at which point an inwards facing sign is actually more visible and arguably placed more logically, certainly more conveniently. Hardly a 'trap for motorists' who actually try to discover what's on the sign.
If you the RK, then the next notice, the Notice to Owner which demands payment, would be sent to you.
Unless there are actual defects in the PCN, then IMO we're looking at prospective procedural c**k-ups in order to make it worthwhile risking the discount.
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Here is the rejection letter
https://ibb.co/nNWmPjz3
https://ibb.co/k2WcQbHT
I submitted my appeal on 11 October and included reasons that I originally posted here too. That sign is still turned away from the road. This is obviously a trap for motorists. I spoke to some drivers who were parked there on other days and they were unaware of the sign as they didn’t see so they didn’t pay and were just lucky the wardens didn’t come check then. So, the advise is to just pay, right?
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OP, what makes you think that pointing to the road is a legal requirement anyway?
IMO, it isn't.
As your obligation was to not leave the parking place until you had determined how to park lawfully, then forwards or backwards makes no difference in law IMO.
Do not risk the discount on your theory please.
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Pleease post up the letter rejecting yr reps.
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Hello, after submitting my appeal and a long wait, I finally received the council’s reply letter of rejection. Exactly as you said, they pointed out that it’s driver’s responsibility to check the signs. I was also observing this sign for a while after that unlucky day, the sign is still turned away from the road, many more drivers get caught into this trap. It must have happened to others as people stopped parking on that road, but the sign still turned away and practically invisible to drivers from the road.
However, the question is whether there is a chance to cancel this ticket? Thank you for your advice.
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Sorry, but I was just pointing out what the council may well rely on, but do go ahead and submit reps. We do have a lot of trouble with adjudicators who seem, how shall we say, a bit bendy towards councils.
Of course by failing to maintain that sign, the council have failed in their duty under Regulation 18 (1)(c) of the The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
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I have just went to the same place to check the signage again and can see that the parking sign is still turned away from the road. It looks like someone is tampering with this sign as the metal tape the sign is fixed on appears to be tampered with. There are no other signs on that road apart from the Enterprise Car club sign at the top of the road, that sign was there for a long time and applies to a couple of designated places. There is also an empty pole just opposite the entrance into the train station (with nothing on it), this pole is maybe about 15-20 meters away from the pole with the turned away parking notice sign on. It is unclear whether this sign is in operation as there are no other visible signs there. If it is in operation, then it would be a very recent change - a couple of weeks max, before there was no restriction whatsoever. And the fact that there is another blue signage related to the train station on the same pole, it diverts attention and obscures the parking signage especially that it is turned away from the road.
https://ibb.co/TqHTk5K9
https://ibb.co/n8Y32rMH
https://ibb.co/p6yn0qCx
https://ibb.co/5xRZbsD6
https://ibb.co/PsR4wQL6
https://ibb.co/NnL6VsX2
https://ibb.co/6Jc2s4vY
https://ibb.co/YxmYNbw
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I intend to appeal in council’s website, just wanted to check here what argument will be appropriate to make. @ stamfordman I have no idea who turned the sign, and then turned it again. When I arrived I did look for a sign but could not see it as I was turned away. When PCO’s came they must have turned it the right way and fined everybody in the row. Then it was turned back again, but I have no idea who did it. When I came back it was turned back away from the road. The other motorist who also was also there was saying the same, she didn’t see the sign when parked even though she parked right under the sign not realising it’s there. I’m going to go and check it now to see what is the situation now. It’s very strange, never happened to me before.
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If the sign was OK to enforce facing the wrong way why did they turn it back.
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OK, the sign was turned round, but you parked in a marked bay, so it was your obligation to look for a sign governing the bay. Yet it seems you didn't. This will be the argument the council will use if you get to adjudication at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
However, despite the above, submit an informal challenge giving the facts as you have described them here, incl a photo of th turned round sign against that of the CEO showing it correctly displayed.
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On 30 September I parked my car in front of Anerley train station, where there have never been parking restrictions before. When I arrived, there were no visible signs at all. I parked in full confidence it was free as usual.
When I returned, I found a PCN on my windscreen. Only then did I notice that the single sign on a pole nearby had been turned facing away from the road, making it impossible to see when parking. Several other cars in the same row were also ticketed, including one parked right next to the pole, which makes it unlikely that we all ignored a sign.
When I checked the council’s photo evidence online, the sign was suddenly facing the correct way. I strongly suspect it was turned around by enforcement officers before taking photos.
Has anyone dealt with a similar situation? Would this be a valid ground for appeal - inadequate signage / unclear restriction? Any advice on how best to word the challenge would be much appreciated. thank you
I tried to use the imgur file upload site but it is no longer available for access in the UK, please see the link to photos and the PCN details uploaded in a One Drive folder.
Parking ticket front: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EUflwcm76kRKqL73qRzXj0EBejiPEXwkIKdPb4NlU2mjVw?e=0IQC5J
Parking ticket back: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/ESJ-qV0l2ARBlt2gpb1-AjQBWq7ktFVewVIrC4A-39TArA?e=1czlJj
Parking sign: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EXYv7ck_CrxBt1EOxyiJf1EBlGbywKtNeO5GHqGDEBTRFg?e=H2mOF5
Sign side view: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/ERo9MKb7BWFDqkWjqRnZyEcB7aP5HN2r0cujohQS0_Wrrw?e=52AEn2
Sign reverse view: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EXFYE4ZNADNFv7bwm2nGJAIBxncmcLOUrcKMHf8yC700xA?e=9a0V1A
car parked: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EXv9PSE4-PpDjOMr7DMH4xwBQVYkUwqDOExDOLBc-mcs3A?e=d2VGyH
Car parked 2: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EbSNvQGnRDRLnplF1awPBGgB8C4OXKFRdKeFNlEC_3JbYA?e=5DCQe0
My car parked rear view: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EYyTrLMpaFZHpcFuJp0zCEQBqjstkT2_bX-jIf3X1OGwYw?e=DqgEX1
other car parked under the sign post: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EW1Pe_kowJpHq9OxkpGTPdwB8BqhcP9MalTIn-Iw7DMKKg?e=AgrGuj
Other car parked right behind mine and fined: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EbbA_CJmvhdIvLSqFYWyzFMBG5rZsKVkUIdsu90OXgD40Q?e=oaxHMg
Other car parked behind mine: https://1drv.ms/i/c/abbb5761eac5e259/ETk6hyn1kUFNu-qGJWmSsWkBZagXIwFFJkZkniBjf7AAog?e=4qkO0h
Here is the whole folder with photos:
https://1drv.ms/f/c/abbb5761eac5e259/EkIOwMPbaCxOljScTfa1aKAB1KDduZ9H6bHime9fW7qK0g?e=kDg4af
this is the location of the parking space, it shows no signs were previously in place: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/1+Ridsdale+Rd,+Anerley,+London+SE20+8AG/@51.4122165,-0.0661722,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swTyQBcLlMrivUwNjkzPRzw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0%26panoid%3DwTyQBcLlMrivUwNjkzPRzw%26yaw%3D180!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x4876016b1aabc419:0xb1e024950726582b!2s1+Ridsdale+Rd,+Anerley,+London+SE20+8AG!3b1!8m2!3d51.4122963!4d-0.0662343!16s%2Fg%2F11c25hcr5l!3m5!1s0x4876016b1aabc419:0xb1e024950726582b!8m2!3d51.4122963!4d-0.0662343!16s%2Fg%2F11c25hcr5l?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAwMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D