Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Verdomde on November 01, 2023, 09:12:30 am
-
The authorities reason for not contesting the appeal are
"Parking Attendant used an old printer roll and unhappy with quality of responses to informal and formal appeal."
I guess the first is an excuse for the mismatched amounts on the front and back of the PCN, and the last is them saying they are just being nice as I was unhappy at my previous appeals not being accepted?
At any rate it's a win, quick and easy and I am happy
Thanks to all on here for all your help
Pains me to think they won't change the signage though and more people will fall prey to them :/
-
Wowsa,
I sent this as my appeal at 11:00 today (and a copy of the PCN)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dsbzaaq4te5bb8oijgtfa/PK65201252.docx?rlkey=2b7zc0m1nhkea5b9zo1ngrk5v&dl=0
and got an email stating this at 14:00
The authority has decided not to contest your appeal. This means that you have won your appeal and the case is closed.
Can I have more information on why the authority has made this decision?
Yes, you can view the reasons why the authority is not contesting this appeal in your online case file:
https://foam.transportappeals.scot/case_files/#/show/6000/decisions/decisions
If the text above does not appear as a link, please copy and paste it into your web browser to view.
Do I need to do anything now?
No, you have nothing to pay and need take no further action.
Am I eligible for costs?
Costs are not usually awarded; however, there may be exceptions if the adjudicator finds that the authority’s decision to reject the initial representation was unreasonable.
For further details on the Costs process, please email transportappeals@scotcourtstribunals.gov.uk
That's a turn up for the books, so fast- I assume they just roll over most of the time without checking the validity of the appeal? As I feel my document wasn't exactly proffesional :D
I will see if the case notes say more and revert
-
Going for option 1 only
-
A bit stuck on this bit
Please select the ground(s) of appeal that are relevant to your case. You will need to check the Notice of Rejection issued by the local authority to determine whether the alleged parking contravention relates to a Pavement Parking, Double Parking or Dropped Footway Prohibition as not all of the grounds of appeal listed below apply to that type of contravention. If you are unsure, please tick the last box.
You can select multiple grounds of appeal.
Should I pick
The alleged contravention did not occur (all parking appeals).
For example: The signs and lines were wrong, the penalty was not served, the alleged events did not happen, the vehicle was entitled to park, loading or unloading was taking place, a passenger was boarding or alighting, a valid disabled badge was displayed or a valid pay and display ticket was displayed.
Or
The Traffic Regulation Order was invalid (does not apply to Pavement Parking, Double Parking or Dropped Footway Prohibition appeals).
TROs are bylaws – created by councils – which specify parking restrictions and the conditions under which vehicles may park.
Or Both, guessing just the first one..
-
They have not re-offered the discount so it is now a total no-brainer to take them to adjudication as the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs.
-
And there was this at the end[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
The header is attached[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
OP, why do you post beheaded docs?
The CC omits its date! Pl repost so that all 4 sides are visible, this way we know that everything which needs to be displayed is displayed.
If, as I suspect, this is simply a case of your letter being delivered a little later than the last permitted date (actual delivery being irrelevant in law, it's the presumed date which counts) then you just need to bring this to the council's attention - their website even has a chat link. You would not be arguing the toss about your reps, simply that the CC was premature. In reality, any council which simply times its processes with a hair trigger at this time of year is foolish. The legal reality is that they had no power to issue the CC if your reps were posted* on 1 Dec.
*- posted doesn't mean posting at 10.30pm on 1st in a post box whose next collection was Mon. 2pm, it means posting so that it entered the mail service no later than Sat.
While you're reposting, pl confirm that the postal address used was the one in the NTO.
What is a CC? I'll look back and see if I can work that out, and repost for you if I find it. It kind of sounds from context like its the demand for £150, that's been dismissed it seems as the latest request was for £100
The letters seem to have gotten through and been looked at (though dismissed it seems)
The chat link on the website doesn't work, I complained to them about that in my first letter too.
Time, I think has answered most of your queries, as they did get back to me.. Sorry about the delay in response- dont know why I didn't get an email, Notify of replies is checked by default, maybe it went to spam or something. But I appreciate your help
-
Hi, thanks for the responses, I didn't get emailed about them, sorry- I will try sort that (i guess there's a button here somewhere)
Got a response back from the Parking support team
Date 11/01/2024
Dear Mr ,
Notice of Rejection of Representations
Road Traffic Act 1991 (As Amended)
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number: PK65201252
Date of contravention: 17/08/2023
Location: Canal Street Multi Storey Car Park
Vehicle registration:
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were given a PCN for parking in an area reserved for Council Vehicles only.
The enclosed photos help to show why your PCN was given.
You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served to:
pay £100.00; or
appeal to the Parking Adjudicator. You can do this online using the details provided
below. The Adjudicator can ask one side to pay costs if he or she believes, for
example, that they have been wholly unreasonable. However, the Adjudicator
rarely asks either side to pay costs. The Adjudicator is independent and both sides
must accept the Adjudicator's decision.
If you do nothing
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate
increasing the charge from £100.00 to £150.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the
increased charge. If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may
use sheriff officers to recover the money from you. You will have to pay their costs too.
Delayed Office Opening
for Employee Training
This office will be closed from
8.45am - 11.00am on the first
Thursday of each month.
Communities
Executive Director (Communities) Barbara Renton
How to pay:
online at www.pkc.gov.uk/parkinggateway and click 'Pay online'.
by phone 0345 603 0121
by post Please make your cheque payable to ‘Perth & Kinross Council’, write your
Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) on the back, then send it to: Parking Services,
Perth & Kinross Council, Pullar House, 35 Kinnoull Street, PERTH PH1 5GD.
Yours sincerely
Parking Support Team
-
OP, why do you post beheaded docs?
The CC omits its date! Pl repost so that all 4 sides are visible, this way we know that everything which needs to be displayed is displayed.
If, as I suspect, this is simply a case of your letter being delivered a little later than the last permitted date (actual delivery being irrelevant in law, it's the presumed date which counts) then you just need to bring this to the council's attention - their website even has a chat link. You would not be arguing the toss about your reps, simply that the CC was premature. In reality, any council which simply times its processes with a hair trigger at this time of year is foolish. The legal reality is that they had no power to issue the CC if your reps were posted* on 1 Dec.
*- posted doesn't mean posting at 10.30pm on 1st in a post box whose next collection was Mon. 2pm, it means posting so that it entered the mail service no later than Sat.
While you're reposting, pl confirm that the postal address used was the one in the NTO.
-
I am not sure of Scottish processes at CC stage, but someone here will.
There is no process. Scottish councils have debt recovery powers that English councils don't have. They don't even need to touch a court - a charge certificate is as valid as a sheriff court warrant and can be handed straight to sheriffs officers for enforcement. That's what the bit about "may be enforced as if it were an extract registered decree with a warrant for execution" means. No TEC. No Order for Recovery.
The best thing to do is contact the council ASAP. Scottish councils have been known to accept late challenges and re-offer lower payments. The sooner the better. Once they've handed it over to Stirling Park or Walker Love for collection, you're pretty much stuffed.
-
This is what I sent, will look out the digital copy as I get time (am at work so can't spend much time on this at the moment)
I guess I gave the date I received the letter or something :/ I'll try and find that nto too
And yes, Friday the 1st
I don't really know what to do, so am just sending this
Hello
My car was parked there while for a visit in Perth and had some food in a Cafe. There was a PCN on the window upon return.
It seems the area in question is supposed to be for council vehicles only, but it is not marked as such anywhere in or around the parking bays:
{pictures}
Clearly there is no appropriate signage, it is only on hunting around that it can eventually be found that there are white on white signs hidden in the rafters- from the perspective of a driver:
{pictures}
It is not acceptable to expect motorists to see such scant signage.
to highlight, here is a section from the BPA Code of Practice
You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm
These signs are inconspicuous and camouflaged. As are the laminated sheets of paper, also out of view above the eye-line of motorists who are navigating narrow and potentially dangerous turns and ramps. The below was taken when standing to get an angle where the laminates are even visible, you can imagine how hidden they are when in a car!
{pictures}
The state of the signage around these bays needs to be reviewed seriously- there should be signs at each parking bay, or at the very least between each charger, and conspicuous prominent signage in plain view in the eyeline of motorists. The signs should not only stipulate that an area is for council use, but that there may be penalties for others using it. There should also be clear indication of which area the signs pertain to, is it just the bays below the signs, the front part of the area? It is unclear. This is another reason why signage should be visible to people when parking, close to vehicles, and close to chargers.
In the next images you can see more evidence that there is no signage to indicate the bay should not be used:
{pictures}
The a4 laminate that is supposed to pass for a sign is at least 4 bays away from the vehicle, high up in the rafters, and hidden from view to cars coming down the ramp by the other rafters and the angle at which you are driving.
It should be noted that any other images considered when reviewing the signage should be looked at with discretion, a driver is lower than someone with a camera held high, and a camera with a flash on will make the signs appear almost visible from that perspective. Remember it is drivers who will be expected to notice signage…
-
You posted on 5 Dec.
Hi, I guess reps is the appeal, I got stressed about how long i had, so sent on Friday
Then:
I mailed it (there's no digital submission option) 1st class.
'Friday' could only mean the preceding Friday, 1 Dec.
You told us that the NTO was dated 8 Nov. The CC says 7th!
So the latest date for submission was either 6/7 Dec.
You posted first-class Fri. 1, therefore the letter was presumed delivered and submitted (irrespective of actual delivery) on 5th which is in time in either case.
Post here the copy of what you submitted and leave in all dates pl.
-
I have the document saved (I believe)
I mailed it (there's no digital submission option) 1st class.
-
No, I haven't had acknowledgement yet
How did you submit? Did you keep a copy?
I am not sure of Scottish processes at CC stage, but someone here will.
-
Good catch! Thanks
I've re-uploaded
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z2grg8oi6s7r68cwrmsgs/increase.png?rlkey=an3o7ot97ngq1s7kjuphluykt&dl=0
No, I haven't had acknowledgement yet
-
You've left your name & address in.
Did you get a receipt/acknowledgement for your reps?
-
I got a letter through at the weekend saying the charge was increase to £150
-
Hi, I guess reps is the appeal, I got stressed about how long i had, so sent on Friday
-
This is history and has been overtaken by events.
You received a NTO dated 8 Nov, and this is what counts.
You have until 7 Dec. to make reps to the council.
Have you sent reps?
-
Tusker got back to me (i asked them to re-send)
the contents of the authorisation was this
Parking Services Perth
and Kinross Council
35 Kinnoull Street
Perth
PH1 5GD
31/10/2023
To whom it may concern
THIRD PARTY AUTHORISATION LETTER
Please accept this letter as confirmation that Tusker authorise you to communicate directly with the nominated person
detailed below in relation to the Penalty Charge Notice they have received:
Vehicle Registration: RJ23FFX
Reference: PK65201252
Make/Model:
Contract Start Date:
Contract End Date:
Customer Name:
Customer Address:
The above vehicle is on long term lease with Tusker and the nominated person above has full use of the vehicle.
Kind Regards,
Contract Administration Supervisor
-
Let us know when you get a response, if you get a notice of rejection addressed to you (and not your employer or the lease company) then it's an easy win as there is no legal basis for the council to demand the penalty from you.
-
I don't really know what to do, so am just sending this
Hello
My car was parked there while for a visit in Perth and had some food in a Cafe. There was a PCN on the window upon return.
It seems the area in question is supposed to be for council vehicles only, but it is not marked as such anywhere in or around the parking bays:
{pictures}
Clearly there is no appropriate signage, it is only on hunting around that it can eventually be found that there are white on white signs hidden in the rafters- from the perspective of a driver:
{pictures}
It is not acceptable to expect motorists to see such scant signage.
to highlight, here is a section from the BPA Code of Practice
You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm
These signs are inconspicuous and camouflaged. As are the laminated sheets of paper, also out of view above the eye-line of motorists who are navigating narrow and potentially dangerous turns and ramps. The below was taken when standing to get an angle where the laminates are even visible, you can imagine how hidden they are when in a car!
{pictures}
The state of the signage around these bays needs to be reviewed seriously- there should be signs at each parking bay, or at the very least between each charger, and conspicuous prominent signage in plain view in the eyeline of motorists. The signs should not only stipulate that an area is for council use, but that there may be penalties for others using it. There should also be clear indication of which area the signs pertain to, is it just the bays below the signs, the front part of the area? It is unclear. This is another reason why signage should be visible to people when parking, close to vehicles, and close to chargers.
In the next images you can see more evidence that there is no signage to indicate the bay should not be used:
{pictures}
The a4 laminate that is supposed to pass for a sign is at least 4 bays away from the vehicle, high up in the rafters, and hidden from view to cars coming down the ramp by the other rafters and the angle at which you are driving.
It should be noted that any other images considered when reviewing the signage should be looked at with discretion, a driver is lower than someone with a camera held high, and a camera with a flash on will make the signs appear almost visible from that perspective. Remember it is drivers who will be expected to notice signage…
-
wouldn't that cover parking places reserved for council vehicles only
That is arguable, but the counter-argument is that an order is meant to designate what's what and the signs merely reflect the order.
Otherwise a council could make a 1 line TRO for all roads and car parks within the council area, simply saying that you must obey all signs that the council might put up anywhere, which would make a mockery of the whole system.
-
From your document link (the first one)
Restrictions on use of car parks
22
When in or near any car park, signs are erected or surface markings are laid down for the purpose of
indicating the entrance or exit thereof, a specified direction of travel, an area of the car park which is
to be kept clear of vehicles, or for any other purpose, no person shall drive or cause or permit to be
driven or shall leave any vehicle other than in accordance with the instructions indicated by means of
the said signs or markings.
wouldn't that cover parking places reserved for council vehicles only
I have links to all the docs and pictures above, I'll try find time to edit the uploads as soon as I possibly can
-
Tusker sent me a copy of the liability transfer, but not sure where it is, will find it at home and scan it if it's useful?
Tusker is particularly thick and stupid, "your employer will not allow us to transfer notices in their name", that's not how it works, the employer has no choice. Still, if the council has gone ahead and accepted Tusker's representation the whole point becomes academic, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
At this point I would suggest you post up all the documents you've received, redact your name and address but label every document so that we know what is addressed to you and what is addressed to Tusker.
Also, have you got the council photos? If yes, please post them up. If not, please contact the council and ask that they email the photos to you.
Lastly the parking places order here https://tro.transportappeals.scot/TRO/Perth%20and%20Kinross%20Council/Off-Street-Car-Parks-Order-2015-signed.PDF doesn't mention anything about parking places reserved for council vehicles only, and I also cannot see anything that creates any restricted areas. I had a quick look at the amending orders at https://tro.transportappeals.scot/authority_tro/?authority=Perth%20and%20Kinross%20Council (you need to filter to "off-street") and none of the amending orders create any such restrictions either, so it looks like the council doesn't get past go with this one.
-
Tusker sent me a copy of the liability transfer, but not sure where it is, will find it at home and scan it if it's useful?
-
From tusker (the lease company)
I have been through all the correspondence from yourself and have located the email dated 23/8/23 where you request Tusker not make payment against a fine issued to your Salary Sacrifice Vehicle.
Within that email, you have not provided any of the PNC details or your vehicle registration only an SQ reference which does not relate to any fine within our system therefore we have no way of tracking the notice should it arrive. Now, over 2 months later your appeal appears been rejected as the increased notice has been issued to Tusker as we are the registered keeper and in line with your SS4C agreement Tusker would be looking to make full payment and invoice your employer to be deducted from your salary.
On this occasion, I have recalled the payment that has been made which leaves the notice open again and we will request a transfer of liability to you. Please be aware that by making this request;
• The council have no obligation to accept it as the agreement that we hold for the VW iD3 is not with yourself but with your employer, and your employer will not allow us to transfer notices in their name.
• You will be liable for any increased costs associated with this notice
• Should the transfer be rejected, Tusker will make payment at the amount requested at that time and invoice this for deduction from your salary and you will be notified by email that the payment has been made.
By Tusker taking this action it does not set a precedent for further notices that may be issued to your Salary Sacrifice Vehicle in the future and all such notices will be processed as detailed in your scheme policy, Drivers Guide and agreement.
-
I'm still on the hunt for the fine print of clarity.
To recap:
The lease company received a NTO which they paid;
They invoiced you?
They subsequently 'cancelled payment', how we don't know. Presumably they have notified you that their invoice has been cancelled.
The council have issued a NTO to you.
The first thing which jumps out is prospective procedural impropriety. The council may not issue a NTO to you unless, in response to representations made by the lease company, they have formally cancelled their NTO. There is no such thing as the lease company issuing 'a release', this is not how the procedure works.
I suggest you contact your lease company and ask for copies of the council's Notice of Acceptance of their representations(which is the formal cancellation) and the reps themselves.
If the second NTO is dated 8 Nov. then you have until 7 Dec. to submit your formal reps.
-
Just a quick response, I am in work and don't think I have the docs, I have an NTO in my name it is identical to the one posted above except sent to me and dated 8/11, the lease company sent the council a release or similar to allow them to contact me.
The lease company cancelled payment of the fine, so it hasn't been paid
-
Luckily I was able to get the lease company to reverse the payment, so now am able to deal with the appeals process. I've until the 5th December I think, though I'd like to start asap, as am not very sure if that's correct..
Sadly, as cp observed 'lease companies are thick and stupid'.
So, what do you mean by 'reverse the payment'?
Also, unless you have a Notice to Owner in your name you have no standing in this matter, however much you are chomping at the bit to get involved. Only the recipient of a NTO may make representations.
So, we and you need clarity pl.
Do you have a NTO in your name? If so, pl post.
If not, what other correspondence do you have?
-
Hi, thanks for the advice
Luckily I was able to get the lease company to reverse the payment, so now am able to deal with the appeals process. I've until the 5th December I think, though I'd like to start asap, as am not very sure if that's correct
Anyone able to take a look at my ramblings on the links and see if I've the making of a good enough defence?
If I appeal with they freeze the process (it says after 05/12 they will add another £50 charge)
I don't know how they get away with such excessive amounts?
Thanks
-
Sounds like, to your knowledge, they are wrong about my being able to challenge?
To explain all the ins and outs would take ages, so I'll cut to the chase: you can arguably reclaim the penalty from the lease company, but you have to be willing to take the lease company to court.
In short, you can only challenge a PCN if you don't pay it, payment deprives you of the right to appeal. Where they say "Legislation requires immediate payment by the registered keeper" they're being incompetent and thick: legislation gives the registered keeper 28 days to pay or challenge, they should have challenged by requesting a transfer of liability.
The bottom line is lease and hire companies are incredibly thick and stupid and they won't accept they're wrong unless and until a court tells them, the corollary of this is that unless you're actually willing to take them to court, there's no point in doing anything else. Sending letters threatening to take them to court without following through would be a waste of time.
The question therefore is: are you willing to have a massive row with the lease company and take them to court to enforce your rights?
In parallel, you could contact the council and ask them to refund the payment on the basis that you want to make representations, and on the odd occasion this can work. The problem is that if the council simply ignore you or say no, there is no recourse open to you.
Also as a general rule, involving MPs in PCNs is a waste of time, they're more likely to mess things up than anything else.
-
Did you challenge the PCN as per the instructions on the back of the PCN?
If so, what did you write?
-
Sounds like, to your knowledge, they are wrong about my being able to challenge?
-
Sorry, I updated the links
FYI- in case it helps anyone else, the front advice doesn't match the advice on the back regarding the reduced amount - £30 on the back, £50 on the front
The advice from the lease company was in the below :
Reference: PK65201252
Date/Time: 17/08/2023 12:34:00
Authority/Operator Name: Parking Services - Perth and Kinross Council
Document Type: NTO
Estimated Cost: £100.00
We have paid this for one of the following reasons:
Legislation requires immediate payment by the registered keeper.
We have been instructed to pay on your behalf by your employer.
The offence has been escalated back to Tusker.
We are unable to transfer liability.
We have therefore Paid £100.00 on your behalf along with a £10.00 + VAT administration fee which your employer will be deducting from your salary.
The above payment has been made to avoid escalated costs to both you and Tusker. It may be possible for you to challenge this fine, to do so please contact the issuing authority directly.
What do you need to do?
If you accept liability no further action is required.
If you do not accept liability, please appeal to the authority. You have 28 days, from the time the notice is issued, to do this and instructions on how to appeal are included on the notification. To enable you to speak with the authority we have attached a Third Party Authorisation letter. You will need to send this with your appeal.
Please note we are unable to appeal on your behalf as we are not the driver of the vehicle.
Should you be successful in your appeal and the authority issues us with a refund, we will credit the penalty charge amount back to you.
-
Your Dropbox links don't work, probably because you used cut-and-past from Pepipoo
Now the penalty has been paid, the legal process is closed, so not sure what advice we can give as this is a forum for dealing with active cases.
-
Following directions to ev charging, my car was parked in an ev charging bay in a multistory car park in Perth
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bpqUrELejqFC9qH18
A PCN was left on the windscreen
I wrote to the MP, then my MP (as you can't write directly), as I was angered by this- there is no signage anywhere in amongst the parking bays. Only white signs in the white painted rafters, at 90degrees to anyone coming down the ramp to park.
I am also very frustrated by the pcn having a non-working website as the appeals process, and a non working chatbot on the website to direct appeals, and various other things- why isn't there an online appeals from the notice to keeper! grr
My car is a lease, and the letter went to them, they paid the fine and are now going to charge me, they say I can still appeal for a refund :/ This is very annoying as I had told the to disregard the PCN via email months ago
the pcn is here
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wmiu4sunul7rwakycnnp0/pcn.pdf?rlkey=ionvudx4tegmf9f0wytlelea0&dl=0
The notice to keeper is in these two links.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6xnnnnw61wbgzjxpyex5y/Perth1.png?rlkey=1dctyrxyql1f2wkrtvpo84xcn&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e6i6capekwqoppdn5nlnr/Perth2.png?rlkey=bk6g119h1l8ksdkxuw2614a6o&dl=0
My corresponence with them via my MP is at this link
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pmzr6gy46im57yjh6qpj9/lettter_to_mp_one.docx?rlkey=emjlxdad6rgqgf8puyrx0xba6&dl=0
(I know I shouldn't have engaged them, just really believed it wouldn't go this far, the signage is a joke
(pics in the letter all there)
Please help if it's possible, I think it's criminal that they are trapping people with such rubbish signage, and am so annoyed at the obfuscated appeals process :/
Also worried I am in a bind now that the lease company paid the fine angry.gif