Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: allondon on October 31, 2023, 09:05:02 pm
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Result from the tribunal yesterday:
Mr Derek Dishman, the Appellant's Authorised Representative attended the hearing of the appeal in
person. The Appellant did not attend. The Authority was not in attendance, nor were they
represented.
It is the Authority's case that the Appellant's vehicle was parked in a permit space without a valid
permit on 7 October 2023 on Bittacy Road. They rely in evidence on the CEO's notes and their
photographs of the vehicle. They have also produced a plan of the Control Parking Zone, which
shows the location in question and there are also blue and green pins denoting the location of CPZ
signs.
Mr Dishman raised a preliminary point regarding the PCN. He pointed out that the certified copy of the
PCN is different in several respects to the original PCN, which he produced at the hearing. I am
satisfied that there are differences between the two PCN's and so it necessarily follows that the
certified copy is not, in fact, a true copy. I agree with the decision in case: 2230567671, in which the
identical point arose and in which it was held that a failure to reproduce a true copy of a PCN is a
procedural impropriety.
As regards the substantive appeal, it is the Appellant's case that, given the direction from which he
travelled, he would not have passed a Controlled Parking Zone sign and so he was unaware that
parking was restricted on the relevant date due to an event. Having studied the route he would have
taken, I am satisfied that he would not have passed one of the two CPZ signs identified on the
Authority's said plan and therefore, he could not have been on notice of the restriction.
In the above circumstances, I allow the appeal.
George Dodd
Adjudicator
8th February 2024
2240012301
AG4413741A
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Thanks to everyone. As I understand - next step is the representation to the council. If it is rejected - I have a choice to apply to the tribunal. Or am I missing something?
I strongly recommend you email Mr Mustard and let him handle it for you.
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Thanks to everyone. As I understand - next step is the representation to the council. If it is rejected - I have a choice to apply to the tribunal. Or am I missing something?
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Thank you for your offer. I do not know how these representations work but I tend to present all my points and evidence in case the other person is not biased.
The council is biased, you need to get to the tribunal to get a fair hearing. That's what Mr Mustard has offered to do for you so I suggest you take him up on it. If he says he can win then it's a safe bet that he will.
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You would be telling them that you know what you're talking about, in particular the burden which falls to them and that if they hold to the 'it's on the website' line then they would lose and possibly line themselves up for a costs award because you had laid out the legal position clearly.
I'm always for putting your strongest case in reps, the alternative is almost to invite a rejection.
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In this case, the driver did not see any 'Event Day' notices on their route into the zone(***, via ***, left at **** etc) for the very good reason that there weren't any CPZ signs at this entrance into the zone. It therefore follows that the council did not convey the information as required and the contravention did not occur.
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Let me see, if the council reject an informal challenge most people meekly pay up the 50% like lambs and the council makes easy undeserved money.
Remember what Warren Buffett said 'Do I ask the barber if I need a haircut?'
What you and every poster on here needs to remember is we aren't here to fight round one, be knocked back and give in.
We are here, with usually solid arguments (we will tell you if we have an unproven strategy) to get the PCN cancelled somewhere along the line and pay nothing.
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Thank you for your offer. I do not know how these representations work but I tend to present all my points and evidence in case the other person is not biased.
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I think I would take a different approach, a short one, it will undoubtedly lead to a rejection but what the heck, it probably would if you sent the bible.
Dear Sirs
The contravention did not occur as I did not pass a sign informing me of an event day. My approach was via Frith Lane, Inglis Way and Sanders Lane (If the last one applies).
Yours etc
I am happy to be the representative, either at this stage or later. mrmustard@zoho.com
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Thank you for the edited version! I will have to amend the last paragraph as my challenge is based on the absence of any CPZ signs on route which is confirmed by my photos and by Google Streetview. In essence, the signs says a permit is required on event days but nowhere on route there is information about event days.
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Why not start at the beginning!
My approach would be:
On Sat 7th October the driver parked in a parking place in Bittacy Road. As can be seen, this is reserved to 'Resident Permit Holders MH, Mon-Fri, with additional controls of Permit Holders only On Event Days ED.
A PCN was issued for the reason that the CEO believed that 7 October was an Event Day.
The council's obligation is to sign restrictions clearly and as the sign itself did not carry any information regarding whether 7 Oct. was an event day then on the face of it the restriction, if it existed, was not clearly conveyed and the contravention did not occur.
I am aware that adjudicators and the courts have held that signing each parking place in an area where such controls exist could place an impossible burden upon councils. They therefore accept that where these locations lie within controlled parking zones councils may discharge their duty to sign clearly by displaying information on every CPZ gateway sign.
They have not and do not accept that any burden falls to the motorist other than to make themselves aware of restrictions by looking at CPZ signs as they are passed. For example, a council does not discharge its duty simply by publishing information on a website: this does not meet the LATOR test.
In this case, the CPZ signs which were passed were located at **** and did not at the time they were passed carry any information to warn motorists that Event Day controls apply. It therefore follows that the council did not convey the information as required and the contravention did not occur. (if this is true)
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Good morning!
The Notice to Owner has arrived promptly. I wish the council was that spirited about road repairs or street cleaning...
NTO was added to Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iUFpvUiMdfO_z2avuU-Ex57oq0SDVj2F) as 20231125_175153.
I had no prior experience with representations. Assuming Barnet website allows to upload pictures, my draft response is below. Any comments will be appreciated.
Dear Sir or Madam,
My name is [...], I am the owner of the car reg [...] and I'm writing this to challenge the PCN [...]
The reason is that I believe that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Location where PCN was issued can be accessed by turning from Inglis Way left to the Bittacy Hill and then turning right to either Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road. Nowhere on route there are CPZ or event date signs and I've uploaded pictures to support this statement. The signage (or absence of it) is confirmed by the Streetview https://maps.app.goo.gl/Yzm6NarLtmav94UF6. The evidence provided for this PCN by the council does not show any CPZ or event information signs either, therefore there is no way for a motorist to know when an event is taking place. In the absence of any prescribed signage no parking permit was required at the time this PCN was issued.
Please cancel this PCN as there was no restrictive signage and no contravention took place.
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I myself was among those 99% that paid without challenging 2 years ago. Not because I trusted the council but because I only noticed the PCN when I returned home and was reluctant to drive back and take pictures.
This time I scouted all the corners and found no information on the event. I am not a football fan - how can I know the council wardens' hunting days!
Hope my photos and Google Street View will convince that the signage is inadequate and not "sufficient" as claimed by the council.
What too many people forget is that the council has to prove you are guilty, you don't have to prove you are innocent.
I have seen more than one case where the best evidence of the signage are the images or videos submitted by the appellant themselves (just seen such an appeal filed today).
The key is to provide nothing, the council has to positively prove its case.
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I myself was among those 99% that paid without challenging 2 years ago. Not because I trusted the council but because I only noticed the PCN when I returned home and was reluctant to drive back and take pictures.
This time I scouted all the corners and found no information on the event. I am not a football fan - how can I know the council wardens' hunting days!
Hope my photos and Google Street View will convince that the signage is inadequate and not "sufficient" as claimed by the council.
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It may surprise you to know that only 1% of PCNs issued ever get the adjudicators. The discount is just too attractive and people's ignorance of the law doesn't help either. People have a touching faith in council probity.
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Yes, the details are correct in DVLA.
It surprises me I can't find any other challenges to the PCN in these 2 Barnet roads that don't have CPZ sign or event information. Council is raking money on any event day.
Many thanks to everyone!
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Completely agree and appreciate the time spent on virtual journey.
Not sure if this is going to be an easy win, but I'm inclined to fight.
Will share my draft representation after the Notice to owner arrives.
The NtO is sent to the name and address on the V5 for the vehicle. Are these details correct and up-to-date ?
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Completely agree and appreciate the time spent on virtual journey.
Not sure if this is going to be an easy win, but I'm inclined to fight.
Will share my draft representation after the Notice to owner arrives.
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Agree ! I did a virtual drive along your route, and indeed on Bittacy Hill, you see CPZ signs just after you can make the turn into Bittacy Road.
However, you are actually in another CPZ as announced on this sign in the opposite direction: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EjK8hqVwkJZS6aZh8
But there is no sign like this on your route.
It seems Barnet made a complete Pot-Mess of this special CPZ as outlined by one of our contributors: -
https://barnetpost.co.uk/2022/02/17/council-urged-to-repay-parking-fines-following-error-in-traffic-order/
Anyway, I did a little virtual drive from the north end of Bittacy Hill, and eventually found this CPZ sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lnez5knJP4iwLPfE7
The mini-roundabout where Inglis Way joins Bittacy Hill is between the two sign locations above
So the plain fact is that there should be a CPZ sign here, as you come up to Bittacy Hill, and there ain't !
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Yzm6NarLtmav94UF6
Surely a slam-dunk win at London Tribunals ?
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My understanding of Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions is that every street junction ("entry point") in the CPZ needs to have a CPZ sign with details of restrictions, otherwise signs need to be placed every 60m.
The key issue is that the signage must be adequate. If you'd taken a route into the CPZ that took you past a CPZ sign, you couldn't claim the signage was inadequate just because a route you didn't take didn't have any signs.
However in your case you did take a route that had no signs, so a diligent motorist taking the route that you took would not pass any signs, so the signage is inadequate.
The relevant regulation is here (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents).
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Thank you.
It came to my mind that Inglis Way and the surrounding area is a new development and Barnet council has not considered adding the signage. Therefore, when turning left from Inglis Way and then turning right to either Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road no CPZ or Event date signs exist. The only signs on Sanders Lane and Bittacy Road are those on my pictures - restrictions on the event day without advertising the event day.
My understanding of Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions is that every street junction ("entry point") in the CPZ needs to have a CPZ sign with details of restrictions, otherwise signs need to be placed every 60m.
Will wait for the NTO.
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Well if there's a route into the CPZ with no CPZ signs then it's an easy challenge. Barnet is seriously deluded if they think there's some overarching legal duty to inform oneself of events, there is no such duty. The duty is on the authority to provide adequate signage.
In the circumstances, just wait for the notice to owner.
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Thank you for responding.
Here is the link to the photos on Google Drive again - tested in another browser without cookies.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iUFpvUiMdfO_z2avuU-Ex57oq0SDVj2F.
I acknowledge that there are CPZ signs along Bittacy Hill, however they are well above Sanders Lane or well bellow Bittacy Road, therefore if you enter either street from Inglis Way you only see signs with parking restrictions ("1-6pm on event days") but no information about the event days.
Here is the link to the map:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lxqrzqs8oHs2Eioc6
And the Street View:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xZfBgy9dbufHQPLLA
(Bittacy Road - no CPZ or event day signs at the entrance)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tbQN9wJsnQzUzXRD7
(Sanders Lane - as above)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/c2Cb6TU7vWBJtPZN8
(Inglis Way - exit towards Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road).
Photos on Google Drive have up-to-date details about all these locations.
Only those driving along Bittacy Hill may be able to see the CPZ/Event date signs.
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Sorry, but we need direct links to documents and GSV links you are using. They don't work, probably because you cut-and-pasted your narrative from Pepipoo.
Using your GSV link, straightaway, I saw the CPZ sign, with, at the bottom, a date for the next event day.
Here's the one on the RH side of the road
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6089782,-0.2102079,3a,15y,164.36h,90.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgfM94adl1K6XDMue-rbldg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
and here's the one on the left
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6088268,-0.2100848,3a,15y,98.68h,94.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKd3BHQTSc_TSvttALF_iAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
and if you turn the car round and drive the other way, there is a sign for a different zone, with parking times outside the event days.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6088268,-0.2100848,3a,15y,98.68h,94.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKd3BHQTSc_TSvttALF_iAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Here's a sign on Bittacy Road by a yellow line
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6078595,-0.2090802,3a,19.3y,290.47h,86.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sORhbfFqnV34MHwt-jXFRQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
So, signs according to GSV March 2022 are there, the only argument after that is, was the date of the next event displayed ?
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This topic was moved from Pepipoo where I registered years ago (sorry to hear it is not supported any longer).
I got a PCN for parking on Saturday 7 October in Bittacy road, nw7 1bp.
"16 Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit when required."
I challenged the PCN on the grounds that according to the signage the permit would be required: 1) Monday-Friday 10-11am or 2) Event days 1-6pm. 7 October was a Saturday and there were no signs advising on the next event's day and time.
The challenge was promptly rejected as "The onus is on the driver to familiarise themselves on the days on which events are taking place".
Location link is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/JR7y5Yf8rLG44zoY6.
Pictures on Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iUFpvUiMdfO_z2avuU-Ex57oq0SDVj2F
Bittacy Road can be accessed from either Bittacy Hill directly or via Sanders Lane.
TimePhoto_20231013_082313 and TimePhoto_20231013_082347 show the entrance to Bittacy Road - no event information or CPZ signs.
TimePhoto_20231023_122354 shows the entrance from the Sanders Lane - ditto.
TimePhoto_20231023_122508 shows the exit from Inglis Way to Bittacy Hill before turning to either Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road - no CPZ or event signs there either.
TimePhoto_20231007_155459 and TimePhoto_20231007_155748 show the signage in Bittacy Road where the car was parked.
PCN on Google Drive : 20231029_123006.
Council response on Google Drive: 20231031_122908, 20231031_122811, 20231031_122921.
The evidence from the council only confirms that the car was parked in the street (which is not challenged), but not any CPZ or event signs.
The next street - Bittacy Rise - has CPZ signs at the entrance. Bittacy Road and Sanders Lane have none.
My intention is to fight all the way to the traffic court as the council failed to advertise event days anywhere on route and I was able to take pictures of all street corners.
There is no way for the motorist coming from Inglis Way to know about CPZ or event days as there is no relevant signage on route.
Thanks in advance.