Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: zeezee on September 29, 2025, 06:23:08 pm
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Appreciate those honest facts - thank you
Here is another example of the turning and where the signage is placed (1st one sideways), albeit taken in the evening.
With on-coming traffic and trying to turn, it would be virtually impossible to see those signs...
[img width=1023.9930419921875 height=767.9976806640625]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54847614369_f3e5aa6282_b.jpg[/img] (https://flic.kr/p/2ryGmTB)3a17d33b-8088-4a74-9dbb-054bbefefaae (https://flic.kr/p/2ryGmTB) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
A good photo because it shows what we now seem to be seeing all over the place; signs at an absurd height, such that they are unlikely to be noticed by drivers having to be constantly on the alert for hazards as they drive in an urban area. These signs are actually as high as the bedroom windows of the houses !! It really is about time somebody called time on this insanity.
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Appreciate those honest facts - thank you
Here is another example of the turning and where the signage is placed (1st one sideways), albeit taken in the evening.
With on-coming traffic and trying to turn, it would be virtually impossible to see those signs...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54847614369_f3e5aa6282_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ryGmTB)3a17d33b-8088-4a74-9dbb-054bbefefaae (https://flic.kr/p/2ryGmTB) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
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Your photos of the advance signs need to be such as to show them as an approaching motorist would see them, because the essential argument here is the adequacy of the signage. Councils hava a duty under Regulation 18 (1)(a) of the The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to place adequate signage advising motorists of the restrictions imposed by the traffic order. Clearly here there are doubt as to whether they have done that, but you must present the strongest argument you can to an adjudicator. Yes, an adjudicator, because the council will reject your reps like night follows day. Why ? Because they know that refusing reps means >95% of PCN recipients then just cough up. The only forum for to test the council and your arguments is London Tribunals, but unfortunately, if you take the council there, the full PCN penalty is always in play, no discount.
So if you are convinced you are right, you have to stand your ground and risk the full PCN penalty. If you lose, it's not a free lunch for the council, because win or lose they have to pay the adjudication fee and also prepare the evidence pack which is a PITA for them.
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So hes written up this response - will this be ok to send off?
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Dear Council,
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice. I request that you cancel it on the grounds due to inadequate and misleading signage, and because it was not reasonably possible for a driver to identify or comply with the restriction from my approach.
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1. Background and route taken
On 11/09/25, I exited New Road and turned right onto Green Lane, intending shortly after to turn left into Holmwood Road, as indicated on the attached annotated map.
This route is a common one for local drivers leaving New Road and joining Green Lane. However, the advance warning sign for the “restricted pedestrian zone” on Holmwood Road is positioned facing vehicles already travelling along Green Lane, not those emerging from New Road.
As such, the sign is not visible to drivers turning right from New Road, since attention at that point must be focused on safely merging with the heavy traffic on Green Lane. The sign’s orientation and position make it impossible to see or read before beginning the left turn into Holmwood Road.
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2. Inadequate / misoriented signage
The only visible signs indicating the restriction are on the entrance to Holmwood Road itself, and only become apparent as a driver is in the process of making the left turn.
By that stage, stopping or reversing to avoid entering would create a safety hazard due to following traffic and Green Lane’s busy flow.
According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) and London Tribunals precedent, signage must provide adequate advance warning that gives a driver a fair opportunity to comply. In this case, no such advance warning was visible to me.
3. Focus on safety and reasonable conduct
Green Lane is a busy main road with constant vehicle and pedestrian traffic. When turning right from New Road, my attention was appropriately directed toward ensuring it was safe to merge and to avoid oncoming traffic.
It would have been unreasonable—and dangerous—to divert attention away from traffic conditions in order to search for signs positioned for a different direction of approach.
My manoeuvre was made cautiously and safely, and any failure to comply was entirely due to the poor placement of signage, not willful disregard of restrictions.
5. Conclusion and request
For the reasons above—particularly the lack of visible advance signage for traffic emerging from New Road and the safety-critical nature of that junction—I therefore request that the Penalty Charge Notice be cancelled.
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So, there were signs in place.
But sister in law said she came out of New Road and took a right and left onto Holmwood Road where she got the ticket.
The sign to turn in wasn’t visible. They may say you can see the signs from across the road but maybe we can argue
a) The sign is not visible and
b) Being a busy road, initially taking a right (see last pic) - concentrating on getting onto the main road rather than looking for the sign on road to then doing that left...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54824462297_f373cb1b92_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDGzX)A (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDGzX) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54824462292_cff127b04b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDGzS)B (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDGzS) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54825578053_cda95afa76_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2rwKqg8)C (https://flic.kr/p/2rwKqg8) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
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Apologies looks like Imgur are leaving the UK lol
I've put up the links again via Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54825625480_6650befb21_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2rwKEmQ)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2rwKEmQ) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54824447447_b79a45fd9f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDCaV)2 (https://flic.kr/p/2rwDCaV) by Zee Aze (https://www.flickr.com/photos/203616810@N04/), on Flickr
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Thank you - I'll get her to go and have a look
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Redbridge almost always have an advance sign earlier on the road that the car drove on, its worth finding out how it looks.
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Hi All,
These PCNs are becoming more common in the family!
My Sister-in-law took a left turn in a restricted pedestrian zone.
But I feel it would be impossible that she could have read the signage - I feel the council need to improve the signage, preventing motorists from into this trap.
Can we argue about signage not being able to be read in advance, especially when it is in front of another sign?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-5zu4-5Wgo
(https://i.imgur.com/Ig8Dzj3.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WRleZ9m.jpeg)