Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: fezster on September 28, 2025, 04:41:35 pm
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I took pictures a couple of weeks later (all the signs were still exactly the same - not been replaced - still painted over).
These are the closer pictures of the signs upon entry to the PPA from Ilford Lane -> Jersey Road:
GSV Link: https://tinyurl.com/4e39nnts
(https://i.ibb.co/KzjPBCwF/5a6283ad-a810-4018-93a8-f6ac4316f522.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mFCjdQ86)
(https://i.ibb.co/5h8Pn8TD/589ee877-2f26-4272-969a-357bce827084.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTzjxz7v)
(https://i.ibb.co/6cvnTxhx/838e585e-6685-42d1-94ae-035aa34a426e.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DPGVvyXy)
(https://i.ibb.co/PvT0Djnq/a51a182c-a6b0-47fa-94cd-4e8309e2d59a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxKdW2S9)
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I thought I'd established this is in a PPA - this is about the PPA entry signs. Where are they? The council has just posted a repeater sign.
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Got it - will wait for NtO and submit the same as previous for formal representation. Then wait for inevitable rejection and come back here for next steps. Appreciate it!
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There is a high chance of winning.
If you want to join the mugs club then that is your choice.
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What would you put my chances of success on this?
I'm normally up for the fight, on principle alone. However, part of me is considering just paying the reduced rate and move on ...
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Your final paragraph is correct.
One must be patient and follow the legally set procedure.
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Received the following rejection today in the post from Redbridge. To be expected, I guess. For some reason I had hope they might apply a bit of reason.
What are next steps here? I thought it would now go to London Tribunals - but the letter says to wait for the NtO and then submit another formal representation (which I presume will be rejected for the same reason) and only then can it be taken to the independent ajudicator - is that right?
(https://i.ibb.co/S41D2L7F/image.png) (https://ibb.co/nNVqTW8x)
(https://i.ibb.co/hJ4stCvH/image.png) (https://ibb.co/5gSTf2Vv)
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Thank you very much. Submitted the representation and will update once I receive a reply.
My representation is below (for reference):
Dear Sir or Madam,
All photos referred to are in the attached word document and labelled with a heading.
I wish to challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice.
I am not local to this area and am unfamiliar with the parking restrictions that may apply. I, therefore, have to rely on the signage in place to be informed of any restrictions.
The alleged contravention did not occur because the restriction was not clearly signed in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD).
The route I took into Paget Road was from Ilford Lane → Jersey Road → Lowbrook Road → Paget Road. At no point along this route were the restriction signs visible or legible:
• The entry signs to Jersey Road were defaced (photo 1)
• All signs along Jersey Road were defaced (photos 2 - 5).
• On Paget Road, the sign adjacent to where the vehicle was parked was facing the wrong way and defaced (photos 6–7).
• On Lowbrook Road, the only other visible sign from this location was also defaced (photo 8).
• On Lowbrook Road, the next nearest sign within walking distance was also defaced (photo 9).
I note that your Civil Enforcement Officer’s evidence has photographed a sign roughly 100 metres from where the vehicle was parked (photo 10 which the CEO produced as evidence). I have attached photo 13 which shows the location of the 5 closest signs, circled in green, to the parking space - all of which were defaced. The CEO had to walk 100m (photo 14 showing the distance to this sign) to the sign marked "number 4" in order to produce a photo for evidence. This is further confirmed by the timestamp on the photo which is 3 minutes after the photo of the vehicle was taken, showing they needed to walk some considerable distance.
I also note that the CEO seems to have intentionally not photographed the defaced sign right next to the parked vehicle. The angle of the photo they have taken conveniently leaves this sign out of shot (photo 11). You can refer to my own photo 15 and photo 16 showing the defaced sign next to the vehicle. This demonstrates that the signage within the vicinity of the vehicle was inadequate.
The TSRGD and associated case law and adjudicator decisions confirm that restrictions must be signed so they are clear, either upon entering a zone, or at the point of parking. Motorists cannot be expected to walk several minutes to discover a restriction, particularly when the nearest signs are obscured. As this is a zone where restrictions apply, the entry into the zone can be relied on to enforce those restrictions. However, as my evidence shows, this sign was also defaced.
In light of the above, I respectfully request that this Penalty Charge Notice be cancelled, as the contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage.
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Thank you - I did read that page, and so it looks like I should go ahead and make a representation, as I will not receive anything in the post.
I'd like some advice on whether there are any technical challenges I can make on the PCN?
If not, whether or not the obscured signage (on both entry to the zone and in/around the parking spot), plus the fact the CEO has evidenced a sign 100m away - are these all strong grounds for an appeal? Or if anything else I should be considering or adding.
Thanks!
Keep the representation simple. It is that signage is not adequate. Send the council the zone entry sign, tell them you found it afterwards and that it is clearly non compliant. Also tell them that the sign which the CEO photographed was 100m from the vehicle and was not driven past. Invite them to cancel the PCN.
I can take over later if you wish especially for the tribunal.
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Done - looks like Imgur is doing something strange with the previously uploaded images. Let me know if these show ok.
Also - google drive link with all of the images referred to in my first post: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1z9bwDy9vIGG_g6Iz4Xxk2oU6r70GGKm7
(https://i.ibb.co/tTsDWmY8/PCN-front.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zp8xkLcW)
(https://i.ibb.co/1fVfk4ND/PCN-back.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDTDmJHY)
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Please use imgbb.com to give us a copy of the pcn. Select do not auto delete and Use BB Full linked code
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Thank you - I did read that page, and so it looks like I should go ahead and make a representation, as I will not receive anything in the post.
I'd like some advice on whether there are any technical challenges I can make on the PCN?
If not, whether or not the obscured signage (on both entry to the zone and in/around the parking spot), plus the fact the CEO has evidenced a sign 100m away - are these all strong grounds for an appeal? Or if anything else I should be considering or adding.
Thanks!
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Can someone tell me what the sequence of events are after receiving a PCN attached to a car?
1. Is a notice sent in the post?
2. Does the 14 day window start from the notice in post (or the day the PCN was attached to the car)?
3. How many appeal stages there are?
If you only do video hearings you can't get this adjudicator who only does ones 'on the papers' i.e. postal hearings.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
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Can someone tell me what the sequence of events are after receiving a PCN attached to a car?
1. Is a notice sent in the post?
2. Does the 14 day window start from the notice in post (or the day the PCN was attached to the car)?
3. How many appeal stages there are?
If you only do video hearings you can't get this adjudicator who only does ones 'on the papers' i.e. postal hearings.
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Any help please?
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Can someone tell me what the sequence of events are after receiving a PCN attached to a car?
1. Is a notice sent in the post?
2. Does the 14 day window start from the notice in post (or the day the PCN was attached to the car)?
3. How many appeal stages there are?
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So for this adjudicator, it doesn't matter a damn whether councils fail do their duty under Regulation 18 (1)(b) of the The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
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How should I proceed? So far, I only have the PCN which was attached to the windscreen. Do I need to submit an informal appeal at this stage or should I wait for something in the post?
I've also pulled out a number of tribunal cases for this area which referenced obscured signage. I think all were refused - but they make reference to the signage on entrance to the zone, which in my case is also obscured.
London tribunal links:
Jersey Road:
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2240159591
2240321124
Lowbrook Road:
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224058052A
2250069032
Example appeal decision (224058052A):
The allegation in this case is that the vehicle was parked without payment of the parking charge. The Appellant criticises the quality of the signage. He says that there were no road markings and that time plates had been vandalised with black paint. He has provided video footage as supporting evidence.
The Enforcement Authority’s case is that the vehicle was parked in a Restricted Parking Zone. In a Restricted Parking Zone there is no requirement for road markings or roadside signs. The requirement is that entry point signs indicate restrictions to the motorist as he/she enters the zone. There may also be ‘repeater’ signs within the zone but the motorist is deemed to be on notice of the restrictions within the zone as he/she passes the entry point sign.
The appeal fails for a number of reasons. Firstly, the signs shown by the Appellant appear to be repeater signs which are not legally necessary. Second, it is noticeable the Appellant did not approach close to some of the signs which suggests they could still be read through the paint. Thirdly, no motorist should form the idea he can take advantage of such vandalism. The motorist who parks at a location where he genuinely cannot read the signage takes a chance and can have no reasonable complaint if issued a PCN.
I am satisfied the signage of restrictions was substantially compliant, clear and adequate.
Having considered all the evidence I am satisfied that the contravention occurred and that the PCN was properly issued and served. I am not satisfied that any exemption applies.
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This is a permit parking area and their evidence just shows you on the road and a repeater sign which as you say isn't anywhere near your car.
A PPA must have clear entry signs. The repeater signs are only there to remind you you're in a PPA.
This area seems to be one giant PPA or a load of separate PPAs.
(https://i.ibb.co/S7X9NbB5/Screenshot-2025-09-29-at-12-31-58.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/NndnBJGL/Screenshot-2025-09-29-at-12-23-10.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/kgs2tVms/Screenshot-2025-09-29-at-12-23-18.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/nN0qzBjq/Screenshot-2025-09-29-at-12-23-29.png)
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I've marked out the location of all of the signs around the vicinity of the parking spot.
There are four signs on Paget Road itself - each numbered on the lamppost on Google Street View. The CEO has taken a picture of number 4.
(https://i.imgur.com/zsGgj0f.jpeg)
The entry from Ilford Lane onto Jersey Road has signs saying "Permit holders parking only past this point", which I can see on Google Street View from Sep 2024 (albeit, they do have some spray painted on them even back then!). I understand the council can rely on these signs alone to enforce tickets (i.e. the signs on the street are not technically required). However, as you can see from this image from my dashcam, these signs were totally illegible, especially whilst driving.
(https://i.imgur.com/AB4RwzX.jpeg)
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Fair enough. Image below.
(https://i.imgur.com/ObGqDa7.jpeg)
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I think I can safely say that in some 50,000 posts since this forum started disclosing this info has not caused ay probs.
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Won't that allow anyone to then potentially submit an appeal. Not sure why anyone would do that but feels wrong to put the information on a public forum. Happy to pm the details if that's a more secure way to do it.
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Not sure why you've redacted Reg.mark and PCN number? Please provide them.
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Hi All. Back again. This one is so frustrating.
The driver of the vehicle found a PCN attached to their windscreen when returning from a restaurant in Ilford, Redbridge. They do not visit this area very often so are unaware of restrictions in and around this area. However, they did check the signs upon entering the area and when parking.
PCN is shown at the bottom of this post. I've also uploaded all images I'll be referring to on google drive - hope that is ok: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1z9bwDy9vIGG_g6Iz4Xxk2oU6r70GGKm7?usp=drive_link
The route the driver took to get to the parking space is shown in map.jpg. All of this is recorded on dashcam, with additional photos taken from the dashcam footage and from the passenger of the car taking photos after the PCN was found.
The driver turned from Ilford Lane into Jersey Road. The signs upon entry are obscured. All of the signs on jersey road are also obscured, some of which are shown in the photos, but all can be clearly seen in the dashcam footage. These are photos 1 to 5 in the google drive link.
The driver then turned left briefly onto Lowbrook Road and then right into Paget Road - where the parking space is immediately on the left after the double yellow lines.
The photo google street view.jpg shows what the parking restriction sign should have looked like. But if you look at photo 6 - driving into paget road.jpg, you can see that the sign is facing in the wrong direction. Photo 7 - paget road sign.jpg shows the sign from the other side and it is obscured. This is next to the space the driver parked.
Photo 8 - paget road looking at lowbrook road.jpg shows the sign located on Lowbrook Road opposite the parking space, which is also obscured. Photo 9 - lowbrook road.jpg is a sign a little further down on Lowbrook Road which is also obscured.
Point being none of the signs on approach to parking, at the parking spot, or when walking away from the parking spot were visible or legible. I dont have evidence of signs further along Lowbrook Road, but the driver has confirmed that they were obscured as well.
The PCN evidence the enforcement officer has uploaded shows a clearly legible sign. This is photo 10 - PCN Evidence Photo.jpg. However, I have located this sign on Google Street View and it is quite some considerable distance down Paget Road. You can see how far down in 11 - PCN Evidence Location.jpg. Unfortunately, the driver did not go down there to verify this sign.
Google street view of sign taken photo of: https://tinyurl.com/2dnfhwwt
It's interesting the enforcement officer chose this sign to photograph so far along. There is a sign closer to the parking spot, which I am guessing was also obscured, so they did not choose to use that as evidence. However, the driver has no evidence of this and the location is quite far for them to go back and check.
The evidence photos the enforcement officer uploaded conveniently fail to show the sign right next to the parked vehicle, nor the signs opposite on Lowbrook Road. This seems to me to be deliberate.
EDIT - in fact, the last photo taken of the vehicle is at 13:00:46. The photo taken of the legible sign is at 13:03:59. The enforcement officer had to walk for over 3 minutes to find a legible sign to take a photo of.
After finding the PCN, the driver stopped to speak to an enforcement officer who was nearby (he may not have been the same person who issued the ticket). He confirmed that the signs being obscured were known to Redbridge Council and they they would be sending someone to replace them. Why they are issuing tickets whilst the signs are obscured seems very underhand to me!
Please could you advise on whether:
1. This is contestable and likelihood of being successful
2. How to challenge the ticket
Thank you!
(https://i.imgur.com/Wvn352v.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3hVB2sm.jpeg)