Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LMo on September 28, 2025, 04:36:06 pm
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Looks OK. I assume this is your appeal to London Tribunals.
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Would welcome feedback on the below:
Dear Sirs
I would like to take my right to appeal PCN GX28953973. My challenge was rejected on 19 September 2025. However, my notification of rejection was received by post on 30 September 2025, 10 days into my appeal window.
My grounds for appeal are as follows.
1. No contravention based on no road signs stating that the road user cannot turn into Vestry Road.
For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to clear my journey started from Havil Street, SE5, where I drop off and pick up my two children from the Havil Street entrance of Sunshine Fruits Montessori Nursery on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. This has been the case since my elder child joined in October 2022. Please see evidence A for confirmation my children attend the nursery and were present on the day of the PCN.
The light system where Havil Street meets the Peckham Road is clear. There is no left turn on to Peckham Road. Please see evidence B. There are no other signs for road users. For the avoidance of doubt, there are no signs saying that people leaving Havil Street cannot turn into Vestry Road.
2. Clear indication to drivers they can enter Vestry Road from Havil Street.
While the absence of a sign saying no left turn into Vestry Road is my fundamental and conclusive reason why I have not performed a contravention, I would also point to the wider absence of signs / information, only endorsing the view as a driver that you are operating legally and appropriately in making this manoeuvre left into Vestry Road from Havil Street.
Firstly, there is a clear place you would expect to see a sign saying no left turn, to make explicit that this is not allowed, namely the lamp post just before turning into Vestry Road. There is nothing. Please see evidence C.
Thirdly, the light system that joins Havil Street, Vestry Road and Peckham Road is clear that road users driving along the Peckham Road, and waiting at the lights either side of the junction cannot take a left or right into Vestry Road or Havil Street. Therefore, there is no other point of entry to these two-way streets.
If users of Havil Street and Vestry Road were not allowed to cross between the two, logically there is no point of entry remaining so they would be one-way. They are not.
3. Incorrect evidence from TFL to overturn my challenge.
TFL base their reason for my challenge being rejected as the fact I should have seen the clear no left turn signs from the light system at the Peckham Road/Havil Street/Vestry Road junction.
The signs they have sent are only visible to a road user who is driving towards these lights from Peckham Road, not a road user approaching the lights from Havil Street. Please see evidence D with the photo they sent me of proof of signs, as mentioned taken from a perspective that is not true for a Havil Street user and the paragraph of the letter clearly citing this sign – which is not applicable in my case – as their reason.
Please note, in the photo in evidence D you can see the side profile of the lights that were visible to me and carry different signs, namely just one sign saying no left turn onto Peckham Road. In addition, you can see in the photo the road sign for Havil Road, underpinning I would not have visibility of these signs on exiting.
For the avoidance of any doubt, the online photo evidence they sent also shows a photo of my car crossing while the cars on Peckham Road wait behind their red light, again removing any confusion that I was coming from this direction, and confirming I was pulling out from Havil Street. Please see evidence E. I also clarify my route and the place a car would need to be to see TFL’s evidence in evidence F.
4. Lights on Peckham Road obscured by lamp post.
Given the confusion this situation has caused me, I also want to ensure I have tied up any other loose ends that could be claimed as the rationale for my contravention.
On this front, for the avoidance of doubt if the second road sign, at the second set of lights holding traffic moving from Camberwell – Peckham down the Peckham Road was meant to be the indication a left hand turn was not permitted, this is unacceptable as for a road user leaving Havil Street, these signs are obscured by a lamp post. Please see evidence G.
As the following regulation that you will be aware of says, TFL is obliged to provide adequate signage of the restriction under Regulation 18 of the The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
5. My conclusions.
As mentioned, I have driven this route for over three years. I have never once received a PCN prior to 01 September 2025. However, my clear assumption is new cameras went in on this date that are mis calibrating to sometimes report cars coming from Havil Street as performing a contravention.
The rejection I received only endorses the view that TFL are basing their charge on the fact I was driving from the Peckham Road side of the light system, vs. coming from Havil Street, despite me being explicitly clear in my challenge.
I would add that I see cars and bikes every single day cross from Havil Street to Vestry Road. If this is not allowed, there must be an issue with signs, given the number of road users who are and continue to take this route.
I have also asked other parents at nursery who asserted their view this is not a prohibited turn and interestingly, they have not been received PCNs for driving the route. Similarly, some, not all of my drives have resulted in a PCN so I am wondering if it is based on the angle you approach Vestry Road from as to whether the camera incorrectly picks your car up.
6. Further important information.
My PCN as challenged here captures an alleged contravention on 01 September 2025 but was not issued to me until 11 September 2025, and received by me on 16 September 2025. During this window, I continued to drive my normal nursery route unaware I was about to become the recipient of manifold PCNs during this window. I have only received a rejection for GX28953973 currently. The other 6 are under review and I have updated my challenge to note the incorrect assumptions made in rejecting this one.
Should the rest also get rejected, I will want to factor this angle into my appeal.
Thank you for your time and I look forward to speaking in person.
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What unbelievably thick and stupid person wrote this letter, even including a photo of the traffic lights that apply only to traffic in Peckham Road !! But of course he/sho would be following a secret procedure to refuse ALL representations. This is in place because TfL know that when reps are rejected, virtually all people then just cough up. So are you going to, and join The Mugged Club ?
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I now have the notice of rejection, and the issue is clear. They are not acknowledging that in exiting from Havil Street I did not drive through the light system with the sign. They attach a photo of the sign they say is the clear indication, it precedes Havil Street. Bizarrely they also acknowledge no signs are visible from Havil street. I’m a bit at a loss but the stupidity but welcome help!
https://imgur.com/a/kIbEbCv
https://imgur.com/a/jVfk59f
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Thank you so much for your support and I will cite this. You can imagine my horror with 10 of these!
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Don't let them fool you by claiming this signal head gives you the information; it doesn't because it is for traffic at the stop line on Peckham Road. You are well past the stop line on Havill Road at the point when you might possibly notice this signal head.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PiXLHsEmxKXYeGN2A
The bottom line is that they have failed to provide adequate signage of the restriction that they are obliged to do under Regulation 18 of the The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
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Is my challenge clear enough or do I need to tighten? I’m conscious I have only one written escalation left and if I get it wrong… £1,280 in collective fines!
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@Incandescent you are spot on - I thought it was a slam dunk and I’m baffled.
@Mr chips, I will need to take more photos from the Peckham road traffic lights. But in short you have signs ON the lights themselves and also ahead of you by the side of Vestry road - these are the ones you can see blocked from view as you exit Havil road by the lamp post.
Given the lack of visible signs and the fact the only route on this two way road is from Havil Street, I’m just utterly baffled
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@Incandescent but they are no left turn onto the Peckham road. This is a right turn onto Peckham road then a near immediate left onto Vestsy road. My point is, having turned left onto Peckham road, there is nothing visible telling you that you cannot go left
Into Vestry road (as I and all the other road users have been doing for years!)
OK, got it.
And you must on a certain slam-dunk win at London Tribunal with this case, as here are the traffic lights on Peckham Road: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LfebgytxeyYTE4C57
yet there is no signage whatever on approach from Havill Street.
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Agree, you correctly turn right onto Peckham Road (so not in breach of the no left turn sign).
Once you are on Peckham Road there's no signage that I can see which bars you from turning immediately left onto Havil Street.
What signage there is is further back on Peckham Road before you join it.
If you can't turn onto Havil Street (left or right) from Peckham Road, then the only way to access it is surely from Vestry Road.
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@Incandescent but they are no left turn onto the Peckham road. This is a right turn onto Peckham road then a near immediate left onto Vestsy road. My point is, having turned left onto Peckham road, there is nothing visible telling you that you cannot go left
Into Vestry road (as I and all the other road users have been doing for years!)
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The traffic lights have the No Left Turn sign on them, so really that would, I think tend to destroy any evidence you may present on lack of signs, because they are signs just like any others.
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https://imgur.com/RJ4wlBw
https://imgur.com/z6weUTE
I had posted on Imgur but I think it is only showing first 3 uploads. Does this work?
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Can you add a photo of at least one of the PCNs (all pages)? Just redact your name and address.
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Images here: https://imgur.com/a/S0K5yFU
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Thank you. Will work to upload. License LK19 AXV
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Thanks ever so much - I am new and struggling to navigate slightly. Where are the sticky thread instructions?
I could also provide clear evidence I was coming from Havil Street as have nursery documents which show pick up times.
Please see my reply #1 above. There's a link in the text to the sticky post.
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Thanks ever so much - I am new and struggling to navigate slightly. Where are the sticky thread instructions?
I could also provide clear evidence I was coming from Havil Street as have nursery documents which show pick up times.
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Have you read the sticky thread setting out instructions?
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Looking on Google streetview I'd agree there are no signs to prohibit going across. Most likely the cameras are new and haven't been calibrated to filter out 'left turns' originating from the side street.
We'll need docs etc to comment in more detail.
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How do I attach photos?
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Please post up the first PCN and a list of all the others, providing they are identical. Please leave everything visible. Redact/obscure your name and address.
Have you had a Notice of Rejection yet for the first PCN. If so, please post it up.
Instructions for posting documents and pictures are in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of this forum.
What's the vehicle reg?
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I have driven the same route to my children’s nursery for 3 years. However, on 16th Sept I received a PCN for making a ‘prohibited’ left turn. Since then, I have received a further 10 and counting (drive the route twice a day, 4 days a week) for the period between the PCNs starting to be charged and the date of the first letter, for the same turn!
Firstly I am baffled. There is no new signage to denote a change.
Secondly I do not believe the road signs to support a no left turn PCN.
Thirdly, in a worst case I’m told I have to pay this, surely there is something I can do to consolidate these into one (they currently are stacking up to £1,280 for exactly the same, unknowing offence).
Accordingly to PCN checker my first challenge has been rejected but I’m awaiting details. I will go to tribunal and would welcome advice on how to over turn, or worst case, ask for the PCnS to be amalgated into one given context.
My original challenge is below. Images should be here:
https://imgur.com/a/S0K5yFU
https://imgur.com/z6weUTE
https://imgur.com/pcn3-RJ4wlBw
https://imgur.com/z9ZdRfN
https://imgur.com/lyrHOeJ
https://imgur.com/pcn3-RJ4wlBw
https://imgur.com/a/pcn-S0K5yFU
My challenge is below:
I would refer to my concurrent PCNs GX28953973, GX2909378A, GX29237358, GX293446397, GX29305447, GX29265036. I have contested every single one on the day received, some of which are up to 18 days post alleged contravention.
As documented in this, as a road user leaving Havil Street, there is no visible signage to inform drivers or cyclists they cannot make this turn. I have several points on which to contest:
1. Currently, the sign as you leave Havil Street makes clear you cannot turn left onto Peckham Road. There are no other signs visible ahead, when you are at the junction, saying you cannot turn into Vestry Road. However, there are clear places you would expect to see these signs, such as on the lamppost directly ahead on the corner of Vestry Road, if this was the case. There are no signs.
2. I would add that as you come out of Havil Street, the signs on the Peckham road are obscured by a lamp post so, if these signs visible for road users at the Peckham Road lights are intended for those leaving Havil Street too, there is a clear visibility issue and is unreasonable to expect a driver to see these.
3. The signs for users in both directions on Peckham road are very clear there is no entry to either Havil Street or Vestry road. However both Havil Street and Vestry road are two way roads clearly indicating, alongside the absence of visible signage, that the only entry point is via either Havil Street direct to Vestry road, or vice versa. If this is not the case why do you not have clear no entry signs and make the streets one way as there is no other means of entry remaining.
4. I also attach a photo from turning into Havil Street where it makes clear no access to Southampton Way so there is precedent for this sort of sign, only endorsing the confusion given there is no sign of this nature entering Vestry Road.
5. I have driven this route for over three years with no issue. Since the moment I received the first PCN I have not driven this route as I await clarity. due to the 2 week time lag in you sending PCNs though, you have put me in a completely unfair position. For the subsequent weeks I have been seeking alternative routes, every day I have seen multiple cars and bikes, from both directions, cross from Havil Street to Vestry road so I can only assume I am receiving these in error.
Please find photographic evidence attached.
To summarize, please find my photos showing no visible signage. I am very upset by this situation that has come to pass after three years, and very confused to be held accountable for an action that is on TFL to address via clear and appropriate road signs if it is a contravention.
Kind regards