Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: JulianV on September 24, 2025, 12:33:55 pm
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Do you want me to upload any supporting evidence?
Not necessary. Just keep your own record please. Have a good break.
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Do you want me to upload any supporting evidence?
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Dear Havering
I require you to consider my initial challenge as formal representations against the EN. In addition, the video does not support the alleged contravention as there is no evidence of any upright signage allegedly passed and the signage as seen is not fit for purpose.
Further, the EN conflates two entirely separate concepts - service with delivery. They are not necessarily the same.
Please cancel therefore.
Yours
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So, tick A and add this text:
Dear Havering
I require you to consider my initial challenge as formal representations against the EN. In addition, the video does not support the alleged contravention as there is no evidence of any upright signage allegedly passed and the signage as seen is not fit for purpose. Please cancel therefore.
Yours
Thanks, I just want to make sure I get this 100%
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A
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Ah, I thought I had to send by paper at this stage. So, which option do I choose?
Representation Reason
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other
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Im a little confused...
The only way to make a representation appears to be in writing. Do you want me to print something and send that with my written representation?
Go on their website: www.havering.gov.uk/parking and click on appeal link for moving traffic/bus lane, yellow box etc. contraventions. Make a pdf and send. Keep a record of everything please.
https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/2
https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/6
https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/2
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Im a little confused...
The only way to make a representation appears to be in writing. Do you want me to print something and send that with my written representation?
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Correct and screenshot the page first with all the wrong grounds I have highlighted in red - BUT do not mention this
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Ok, understood.
Just to be super clear - On the Making Representations page, I should tick the "There was no breach...." box and the enter the text you suggested?
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I know you guys are the experts but that seems very minimal?
Well, I have a 90% track record at the Tribunal, which would be more if I had had a different adjudicator for some cases. Further, I have a 100% track record for getting tickets cancelled before going to the Tribunal.
I could pull that letter apart. There is also a procedural error in the EN re the conflation of service and delivery.
Please enlighten me if you have anything further to add in strategic terms. Did you notice the Act cited in the rejection?
The time for criticising constructively is at the Tribunal. I have won every single bus lane case the last 4 years - and many more before that over the last 13 years. And have achieved costs. Two against this very council actually and both bus lane cases.
I am prepared to stick in the point about the service/delivery and leave it at that.
More is less. Less is more. Small is beautiful.
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I know you guys are the experts but that seems very minimal?
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Dear Havering
I require you to consider my initial challenge as formal representations against the EN. In addition, the video does not support the alleged contravention as there is no evidence of any upright signage allegedly passed and the signage as seen is not fit for purpose. Please cancel therefore.
Yours
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I imagine I have to make a representation in response to the Enforcement Notice before proceeding to the LT? In that case, can you draft what I should write please? Thanks.
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In my last post I sdvised taking the matter to London Tribunals, but forgot to mention that with Havering demanding the full penalty, it's about time they had to do some real work by the OP registering an appeal at LT, when this mendacious letter can also be presented. Nothing to lose.
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A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other
Additional Information
*****
Back later with full and frank formal representations. The "grounds" in red are for the birds.
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The letter is complete tosh. There is no legal clause that bars one from paying the discount if reps are submitted. At any time within the discount period, a PCN recipient has the right in law to pay at the discounted rate. If it were me, I'd now take them all the way to London Tribunals, and put this letter in as an example of this mendacious council.
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Ok got it, I hope everything you need is here:
https://cdn.imgpile.com/p/LUYDB6G
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https://cdn.imgpile.com/p/PnmwnCn only has part of the first page of the rejection.
Post#39
Havering have now sent the Enforcement Notice. . . .
Which is posted where?
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Please help others to help you by posting the complete letter of rejection and all sides of the Enforcement Notice.
Only redact your name & address from documents - leave all else in.
I did post on imgpile and put the link on too. Do you want me to do something else? Thanks.
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Please help others to help you by posting the complete letter of rejection and all sides of the Enforcement Notice.
Only redact your name & address from documents - leave all else in.
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Hello, could someone please help me draft a representation? Thanks all.
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Sorry as I am very busy. Please: where are the PCN and VRM details and webcode? There are many avenues open here. Website grounds and the video does not show any upright signs. We are all flying blind at present. Also, they MUST attend any Tribunal hearing.
Web code - 093KT665
PCN - HG6235347A
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Rejection is here:
https://cdn.imgpile.com/p/PnmwnCn
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Sorry as I am very busy. Please: where are the PCN and VRM details and webcode? There are many avenues open here. Website grounds and the video does not show any upright signs. We are all flying blind at present. Also, they MUST attend any Tribunal hearing.
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did you not post the rejection as you were asked???
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Havering have now sent the Enforcement Notice. Should I now repeat the representations I have already made?
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Pl post their rejection.
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When the images have been digested, I will assist directly if you wish.
That will be much appreciated.
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When the images have been digested, I will assist directly if you wish.
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Please post up their rejection.
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Havering have rejected our appeal. We must now wait until the next stage.
They simply ignored all the evidence we sent.
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https://imgpile.com/p/k6YE1Rz
Thats the video and image link, not sure how to get the BB code from imgpile?
From Google AI (cannot vouch for accuracy! ) :
AI Overview
To use BBCode with an image from ImgPile, you need to get the direct link to your image and then format it using the (https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftag%3A+%5Bimg%5Ddirect_link_to_image.jpg&hash=041986d798302ac03b675bd3e68f301787f6c0c5). On ImgPile, you can find the "BBCode" option under the "Full Image" category to copy and paste the correct code directly, which is then used to display the image on forums and other platforms that support BBCode.
Steps to use BBCode with ImgPile:
Upload your image to ImgPile .
Find the BBCode link: on ImgPile's sharing options.
Look for a section with different embed codes, including "BBCode".
Select the option for the full-size image if available.
Copy the BBCode: provided by ImgPile.
Paste the BBCode: into your post on a forum or platform that supports BBCode.
Example:
If the BBCode provided by ImgPile looks like (img width=433 height=287]https://imgpile.com/images/some-image.jpg[/img], then that is the exact code you would copy and paste into your post
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https://imgpile.com/p/k6YE1Rz
Thats the video and image link, not sure how to get the BB code from imgpile?
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Ok, help me please.
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As Imgur is no longer available in the UK, you will need to repost images - please use
ibb.co (https://imgbb.com/) or https://imgpile.com/
for posting images.
Wherever possible, use the BBCode
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Most of the images are inaccessible for me. All 34j tickets are beatable because of the law and if you get decent help. ;D
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When he exited the bus lane, there was a sign up ahead.
Additionally, bus lanes in that area are typically 4-7.
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If the sign wasn't readable where did he get 4pm from?
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1. His clock led him to believe that it was before 4pm.
2. The sign was not legible.
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This isn't right.
What is the story - why was your son in the bus lane?
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Ok, this is what I ended up submitting:
I am writing to formally appeal the PCN issued.
According to the evidence, I left a bus lane at 16:00:54, while the bus lane was active at 16:00. Given the very narrow time difference of just 54 seconds, I believe it is unreasonable to expect my vehicle's clock, which is not synchronised with an atomic clock, to be perfectly precise.
In addition I attach a photograph showing the bus lane time signage. The photo was taken by me on 25.09.2025, standing in the road to emulate the view from a car. The photo was taken at chest height, although the viewpoint for a driver would be much lower. Due to the angle of the sign, it is very difficult to read from the drivers seat. It would appear that the sign has been hit by a high vehicle and now is at an angle from the road view. I would say that this sign does not meet regulations for highway signs because.
1. Regulation 10 of TSRGD 2016 states that traffic signs must be placed such that they are visible to drivers and arranged at an appropriate angle to ensure they can be seen clearly and read easily.
2. Schedule 13 of the TSRGD specifies the different types of signs, including bus lane signs, and emphasises that these signs should be positioned in advance of the lane or road restriction, at a location and angle that provides maximum visibility to approaching drivers. Guidance and best practices usually recommend signs be mounted at an angle that makes them easily visible to drivers approaching from a distance, typically around 30-45 degrees relative to the direction of travel
3. The overarching legal requirement is that signs must be placed so that they are clearly visible and readable, which involves appropriate height, placement, and angle — mandated by Regulation 10 of the TSRGD 2016 and supplemented by best practices and guidance from the Department for Transport (DfT).
I would also say that the white line separating the bus lane is very faded and damp conditions made this even harder to see. Specifically, Schedule 2 Part 1 of the TSRGD 2016 covers this and says that markings should be clear and easy for motorists to see. That was not the case here.
Due to the three reasons above (timing, signage and faded white lane), I kindly request that the charge be reviewed and dismissed as it cannot reasonably be subject to enforcement
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Do not argue the approx one minute De minimis it is doubtful even the tribunal would accept that given the video as you did not leave the bus lane straight away the sign and the timing issues are the two you need to use to create a better foundation to put strong arguments to the tribunal later on
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Are you going for trivial timing or sign not visible. You can't really do both in full but with clever wording you could get both in.
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Ok, I am prepared to take this all the way, if you guys are ok to support me?
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Sorry for nagging guys but time marches on. Could someone please check my revised appeal text? TIA
Well, it looks OK to me, but bear in mind they will inevitably reject it, because they just want your money, and know from experience that almost all people just cough-up when reps are rejected. You'll have to take them to London Tribunals where it is virtually certain you will win.
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Sorry for nagging guys but time marches on. Could someone please check my revised appeal text? TIA
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V2 draft, thoughts please?
I am writing to formally appeal the PCN issued.
According to the evidence, I left a bus lane at 16:00:54, while the bus lane was active at 16:00. Given the very narrow time difference of just 54 seconds, I believe this case falls within the de minimis threshold. It is unreasonable to expect my vehicle's clock, which is not synchronised with an atomic clock, to be perfectly precise.
Considering this minor discrepancy, I kindly request that the charge be reviewed and dismissed on the basis that this is a negligible timing difference that cannot reasonably be subject to enforcement.
In addition I attach a photograph showing the bus lane time signage. The photo was taken today, 25.09.2025 by me, standing in the road to emulate the view from a car. The photo was taken at chest height, although the viewpoint for a driver would be much lower. Due to the angle of the sign, it is very difficult to read from the drivers seat. I would say that this sign does not meet regulations for highway signs.
Thank you for your understanding and consideration. I look forward to your response.
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I had a suspicion about the bus timing sign so I popped back today. I would say the sign is at an angle that makes it almost impossible for a driver to see.
Can someone help me with a draft please? Thanks
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg+width%3D1100+height%3D1460%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbOhetzO.jpeg&hash=d065b9147012242ab4b95c81937acd2f655b2337)[/img]https://i.imgur.com/bOhetzO.jpeg[/img]](https://i.imgur.com/bOhetzO.jpeg) (http://[img width=1100 height=1460)
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Do not send your draft.
The PCN alleges a contravention at 16.00 but at 16.00 your car was not to be seen. The video starts at 16.00.45 sec so at 16.00 the CEO had no reason to believe a contravention had occurred which they must have in order to issue a PCN
The de minimis argument can be second but to be honest both arguments are more roe the tribunal as the council will not entertain them
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All 34j tickets are beatable.
Great! How?
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Unless my eyes deceived me, a PCN with location Balgores Rd RM2 was posted previously. (Balgores Rd is hardly a combination it would be possible to pick at random!)
If not, Specsavers beckons.
Would you prefer 1 or 2pm for your visit?! Not sure where Balgores Road comes in?
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All 34j tickets are beatable.
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Unless my eyes deceived me, a PCN with location Balgores Rd RM2 was posted previously. (Balgores Rd is hardly a combination it would be possible to pick at random!)
If not, Specsavers beckons.
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Remember, the rep must be from yr son as registered keeper.
Wait for others to comment but do not miss deadline.
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First draft; thoughts gang?
I am writing to formally appeal the PCN issued.
According to the evidence, I left a bus lane at 16:00:54, while the bus lane was active at 16:00. Given the very narrow time difference of just seconds, I believe this case falls within the de minimis threshold. It is unreasonable to expect my vehicle's clock, which is not synchronised with an atomic clock, to be perfectly precise.
Considering this minor discrepancy, I kindly request that the charge be reviewed and dismissed on the basis that this is a negligible timing difference that cannot reasonably be subject to enforcement.
Thank you for your understanding and consideration. I look forward to your response.
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Assuming his car is the one with the hazard lights on leaving the 'bus lane at 18:00:54 I'd say you have an excellent case for a de minimis appeal. Post a draft here for comment before sending.. There have been past adjudications which have said the car clock cannot vbe expected to be set ny the atomic clock.
That was my initial thoughts (de minimis and clock accuracy)
Is the car and V5C in your son's name?
Yes
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The link helps :)
Assuming his car is the one with the hazard lights on leaving the 'bus lane at 18:00:54 I'd say you have an excellent case for a de minimis appeal. Post a draft here for comment before sending.. There have been past adjudications which have said the car clock cannot vbe expected to be set ny the atomic clock.
Is the car and V5C in your son's name?
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Im struggling to embed the video.
Hope this helps:
https://imgur.com/a/R66gdVK
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OP, pl provide a GSV link to the applicable traffic sign advising of the restricted hours.
Also, pl provide a GSV link to 'Balgores Rd' RM2!
This, from the GSV link provided by the OP, appears to be the sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kuJuiKndMtpX4MPx8
Sorry, HCA, but I fail to see the Balgores Road connection??
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There are various arguments but first we need the video
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OP, pl provide a GSV link to the applicable traffic sign advising of the restricted hours.
Also, pl provide a GSV link to 'Balgores Rd' RM2!
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https://i.imgur.com/S3W6VeH.mp4 (http://[img)
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Here is the PCN
(https://i.imgur.com/JY4aLyu.jpeg)
GSV:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vxs5YDJZLCGuLUmMA
Video:
(https://i.imgur.com/S3W6VeH.mp4)
(https://i.imgur.com/S3W6VeH.mp4)
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. . .
Is this a defendable position?
Thanks
Should be...
As usual, for meaningful advice you will need to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here
all sides of the PCN (only redact yr name & address - leave all else in),
the video,
any council photos,
and
a GSV link to the location.
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My son has received a PCN.
Having checked the video, he was in and out of the bus lane at around 16:00.50s.
I have checked his clock on his car. It's an older vehicle that does not auto update the clock with GPS or anything similar. His time is 2 minutes out.
Is this a defendable position?
Thanks