Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: COUNCILSAREPOO on October 29, 2023, 06:54:22 pm
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Well done ! I suspect they didn't want to appear venal and grasping, (even though they are !).
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The discount seems to still be available, so it might be sensible to pay it before the penalty goes up. I'm all for challenging everything, but if there are no arguable grounds there's no point in throwing good money after bad.
If on the other hand the penalty goes up to £130 before payment is made, then your friend might as well appeal as the penalty doesn't go up any further if she loses.
Hi,
thanks for your help.
The council have cancelled the PCN.
I sent multiple letters to different departments and the CEO of croydon. The CEO didnt even acknowledge the letter or the request to register the car as exempt. Asked for reasonable adjustment to register the car without filling in multiple forms for each LTN. As my friend finds if difficult to do use the computer for a long time. The CEO has ignored this request. So looks like i'll have to escalate this with the MP.
The PCN department emailed her back to ask for the copy of the blue badge and then they cancelled it, so it may have been that they didn't look at all the stuff we sent. I did put the stuff about procedural impropriety and failing to look at all the evidence at the appeal stage in the letter.
Thanks for everyone help it was much appreciated.
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The discount seems to still be available, so it might be sensible to pay it before the penalty goes up. I'm all for challenging everything, but if there are no arguable grounds there's no point in throwing good money after bad.
If on the other hand the penalty goes up to £130 before payment is made, then your friend might as well appeal as the penalty doesn't go up any further if she loses.
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You say that the blue badge exemption is only for residents?
I didn't say that at all.
The blue badge exemption is only for people who have applied for a blue badge permit and had the permit issued to them (I believe it's a virtual permit so you'd likely get an email confirmation). From what you say, your friend did not apply for a permit and did not have a permit on the day in question. Maybe they can apply for one for future visits, but as far as the contravention in question is concerned it's too late as the permit would not have retrospective effect.
If your friend wants to enquire about getting a blue badge permit for future visits, the council website says to write to chnpermits@croydon.gov.uk
Yeah thanks, she didn't apply for a permit because the page she looked at said blue badge holders was exempt but that page didnt say you need to apply for a permit. That information was on another page.
She has asked croydon to exempt her from all the LTNs in croydon as they already have her details and she finds it hard to do the repetitive forms for all the LTNs. We are waiting for a reply from them.
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You say that the blue badge exemption is only for residents?
I didn't say that at all.
The blue badge exemption is only for people who have applied for a blue badge permit and had the permit issued to them (I believe it's a virtual permit so you'd likely get an email confirmation). From what you say, your friend did not apply for a permit and did not have a permit on the day in question. Maybe they can apply for one for future visits, but as far as the contravention in question is concerned it's too late as the permit would not have retrospective effect.
If your friend wants to enquire about getting a blue badge permit for future visits, the council website says to write to chnpermits@croydon.gov.uk
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Thanks for your help.
You say that the blue badge exemption is only for residents? but I cant find this on the website. The driver was visiting and not a resident.
The carers permit and the schools permit page all mention that they have to be within the LTN but the blue badge bit doesn't. So for me reading this it would seem that any blue badge holder would be exempt. Other boroughs actually write that you have to live in the borough etc to get a blue badge exemption. Some boroughs allow all blue badge holders to be exempt.
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As I understand your case, you're saying that a blue badge holder would be exempt if they applied for a permit, but on this occasion a permit had not been applied for.
Therefore while a case can be made that there is no traffic management purpose in enforcing this PCN, by the letter of the law a contravention did occur. Unfortunately therefore this is a case of mere mitigation, and the tribunal cannot allow an appeal based on mitigating circumstances.
So you'd be reliant on two possible ways out of this:
1) The adjudicator finds that the authority did not properly consider the representations made, which allows the tribunal to accept a collateral challenge and allow the appeal, or
2) The adjudicator invites the authority to reconsider the mitigation provided.
The issue with point 1 is that it is very much down to the adjudicator on the day, some adjudicators take the view that if the notice of rejection says that the representations have been considered, they can't go behind that.
The issue with point 2 is that even if the adjudicator accepts that the mitigation in this case is compelling enough to warrant a reconsideration, there is no statutory power direct a reconsideration in a moving traffic case, so the adjudicator cannot force them to reconsider. Therefore if they simply ignore the adjudicator, the adjudicator would be compelled to refuse the appeal.
It is true that Croydon is a bit rubbish at putting its evidence packs together in the first place, and it is always possible they might mess up the evidence pack, but even taking that into account I would judge your chances of winning at 50/50 at best.
Of course this assumes the driver lives inside the relevant zone to begin with, if this was just a visitor from outside of the area who just happened to have a blue badge, the exemption isn't applicable in any event.
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I have got the PCN photos.
I have attached put them in this post.
Do you think it would be worth appealing for the blue badge exemption? As they have ignored this and I have asked the CEO to exempt the vehicle from the LTN as a blue badge holder and she has said she don't get involved with PCN.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZttwDhGUJ2k
The problem is that if the signs are there and the council turns up at the tribunal with evidence of that, the appeal would be very weak. Frankly with the distance between the junction and the restriction, it wouldn't be a particularly strong case to begin with.
I can only see the first page of the PCN, can you show us the remaining pages please?
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ok, i thought you was meant to hide the details.
the PCN reference is CR18524525
Vehicle: LY68KUF
i spoke to my friend who said she didnt she the warning signs on gardeners road. In some appeals this year people have put it down that the signs have fallen. I dont live local to check if they are there but the council didnt put photos of the warning signs in the rejection letter, like they have with others.
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We need to see the video, the easiest way would be for you to just give us the number plate and PCN number. There's no point in hiding these details, the council has them already.
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This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.
Are you saying these advance warning signs have gone missing? https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQyWoTEwinnwSFY48
From what you are saying, your case rests on the failure to consider the plea for discretion that you made. CAn you please show us a copy of exactly what you sent? If you didn't keep a copy, please recreate it from memory as best you can.
no those signs are still there.
i have attached the file in previous posts ill attach it again but let me know if you cant see it. its the pdf file attached to this post
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.
Are you saying these advance warning signs have gone missing? https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQyWoTEwinnwSFY48
From what you are saying, your case rests on the failure to consider the plea for discretion that you made. CAn you please show us a copy of exactly what you sent? If you didn't keep a copy, please recreate it from memory as best you can.
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I have even sent a letter to the CEO of Croydon about the procedural impropriety and equality act and worded it as a letter before action and the reply was she dont replay to this matter. In the letter i even asked them to provide the traffic order and list of exemptions. Surely this is another failure from the council. Under the freedom of information act they have to provide the traffic order and list of exemptions at the very least. For her to dismiss the letter completely is a joke.
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It's also sounds as if that you have a failure to consider, but we need to see their response and compare it to your appeal to advise yo on that.
If this was me, I'd be taking this one to adjudication. The council can't publish a web page that says you're exempt then turn round and say 'ha ha, tricked you, we didn't mean it, cough up'.
Thanks I put up the reply from them in the 1st post with links to imgbb but i have attached the pic. to this comment, also i have attached what i sent them. Their reply is a bog standard reply and mentions nothing of the points i sent them.
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Well the first page you linked to says that, but this page: https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/broad-green-chn-parsons-mead-area
says:
"Local residents are able to apply for a permit for up to three vehicles, the CHN map accessible via the link a little further down this webpage shows the permit zone. Exemptions will be made for some vehicles such as buses, black taxis, local school staff, blue badge holders and designated carers."
This is hopelessly vague, but I don't think it says you need to apply for a permit. It's unclear how or if the second sentence is related to the first, and the second sentence doesn't even make grammatical sense ("local school staff, blue badge holders and designated carers" are not vehicles) but I think it's reasonable to argue that a diligent motorist with a blue badge would read this paragraph and come to the conclusion that they are exempt, and they do not have to apply for a permit because those are only for local residents.
If the two sentences are intended to be read as one, then it either says that worthy vehicles/people are exempt from being able to apply for permits if they are local residents, which is absurd, or that local residents can apply for up to 3 permits but won't get them unless they are in some very small categories, which is also absurd, and if you read it that way it includes a provision for local residents who own buses but not local companies who own buses, which is even moe absurd, so I think it's reasonable to argue that the two sentences must be interpreted independently.
It's also sounds as if that you have a failure to consider, but we need to see their response and compare it to your appeal to advise yo on that.
If this was me, I'd be taking this one to adjudication. The council can't publish a web page that says you're exempt then turn round and say 'ha ha, tricked you, we didn't mean it, cough up'.
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https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/croydons-healthy-neighbourhoods/exemption-permits#:~:text=Blue%20badge%20exemption%20permit,of%20a%20valid%20blue%20badge.
Also https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/broad-green-chn-parsons-mead-area
It says blue badge holders exempt but only if they apply for exemption before hand.
This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.
I have looked at other notice of rejections and they at least mention some points raised by the person but this one doesn't mention any points raised.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I mentioned the equality act and asked for reasonable adjustments to cancel it as blue badge holders are exempt.
Why do you think blue badge holders are exempt?
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can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.
No. Paying closes off the adjudication option. If you could pay the discount and also appeal, everybody would do it and overload the system. It would also be legally odd. If you pay you admit the contravention, it is not a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication.
That's not quite correct, if you have a notice of rejection then you can appeal at any time during the 28 day period. In this scenario, a payment of £65 is a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication. The flip-side is that if you lose at adjudication, the council can demand the other £65.
Paying before receiving a notice of rejection does indeed close off all chance of appealing to the adjudicator, but in this case @COUNCILSAREPOO has a notice of rejection so we don't have to worry about that scenario.
In short, going to the tribunal means it's £0 or £130, so it's all or nothing.
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thanks,
would this come under Failure to consider is a procedural impropriety.
They have written the "PCN was issued because our CCTV camera evidence shows your vehicle going where motorises vehicle are not allowed." But it doesnt, it only shows the signs from the opposite side as if a vehicle was coming from the opposite direction. the CCTV cameras are not fitted to show from the direction of travel so you can't see if there are any signs there or not.
There is no mention of anything about blue badge exemptions which was the main point.
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can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.
No. Paying closes off the adjudication option. If you could pay the discount and also appeal, everybody would do it and overload the system. It would also be legally odd. If you pay you admit the contravention, it is not a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication.
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I have attached the 1st page of the PCN as thats all i have i am doing this on behalf of my friend
and the appeal i sent in.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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We need to see the PCN, and what you sent to them.
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Got a PCN on Parsons mead croydon. Sent in appeal as blue badge holders are exempt but you need to register before hand. Sent in copies of blue badge and asked for the TRO and the list of who is exempt etc and they didnt send in any of the documents asked for.
I think they didn't consider the appeal and just sent a generic rejection as there is no mention of blue badge etc.
I mentioned the equality act and asked for reasonable adjustments to cancel it as blue badge holders are exempt.
The video shows the signs in the opposite direction and not from the direction of travel. I mentioned this in the appeal.
I have attached the copy of the rejection.
can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.
https://ibb.co/0DxrDZ0
https://ibb.co/4RYQc1h
https://ibb.co/KKtPQyk
https://ibb.co/WzzHdpy
https://ibb.co/CBW2rmH
https://ibb.co/vQY7XTk
https://ibb.co/D1Mjv69