Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: fttboy on October 28, 2023, 09:59:38 pm

Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: baroudeur on January 10, 2024, 11:42:35 am: Quote from: fttboy on December 27, 2023, 07:57:55 am
@baroudeur
There has not been a sign at that spot when I've been there. Certainly not at this time.

I visited Belper Road clinic yesterday. It appears that the no waiting sign has now been moved 15 metres along and it's mounted about three metres high, above the alarm box, on the street lighting column next to the large white garage doors.

http://tinyurl.com/4w57nc3c

(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2F4w57nc3c&hash=a5014cceb1d61e637b6d6c400cc4ca7281a30f6d)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on December 27, 2023, 07:57:55 am: @baroudeur
There has not been a sign at that spot when I've been there. Certainly not at this time.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: baroudeur on December 26, 2023, 11:30:30 am: Quote from: fttboy on December 25, 2023, 09:13:21 am

as of this time there is no sign at the start of the road or at the end of DYL.

Weird. I am a regular user of the clinic on the left. I parked there last week and didn't realise the sign was missing.

If that's the case LBC will struggle against appeals quoting no appropriate signage.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on December 25, 2023, 09:13:21 am: as of this time there is no sign at the start of the road or at the end of DYL.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: baroudeur on December 24, 2023, 03:24:24 pm: Is this sign (http://tinyurl.com/nhjp95u6) now missing? It's immediately after the end of the DYL as you enter Belper Road.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on December 24, 2023, 01:24:39 pm: Quote from: baroudeur on December 20, 2023, 10:53:00 am
As someone local who uses that road for parking (main hospital and a treatment centre within walking distance!) could someone comment on the signage please?

The road is a cul-de-sac and the SYL is continuous all the way round. There is a sign on the right immediately on entering, one on each side 'halfway' up, and another at the turning circle at the top end. Does this constitute a continuous length of SYL or are signs required on both left and right sides? Afaik (and GSV back to 2009 confirms) there has never been a sign on the left at the start of the line.

Hi,

I have been back on that road and confirm that there are no signs at the start of the street on either side. And judging by Luton council LOR their interpretation of the regulation is that it is not required.
I thought that the part of the regulation that requires sign within 15m of the start and end of the prohibition is related to position of the sign.

But the council seem to take the view that this refers to the beginning and end of the restriction, not during the restriction. Suggesting that requirement is prohibition time ie 9 - 11 specific only. [cf pg 2 of LOR]. Or am I mis-interpreting that section? Any contrary views?

Anyhow permit me to wish you all a Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: baroudeur on December 20, 2023, 10:53:00 am: As someone local who uses that road for parking (main hospital and a treatment centre within walking distance!) could someone comment on the signage please?

The road is a cul-de-sac and the SYL is continuous all the way round. There is a sign on the right immediately on entering, one on each side 'halfway' up, and another at the turning circle at the top end. Does this constitute a continuous length of SYL or are signs required on both left and right sides? Afaik (and GSV back to 2009 confirms) there has never been a sign on the left at the start of the line.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: Incandescent on December 19, 2023, 11:23:29 pm: Do be aware that if you take them to adjudication, the full PCN penalty will be in play. My opinion is that you will lose, but HCA thinks it is a slam-dunk win. Hard to choose, isn't it ! You could look at what the Earl of Montrose said in such circumstances: -

"He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who fears to put it to the touch
To win, or lose it all"

Sorry to say, the Earl lost and was hanged, drawn, and quartered, in Edinburgh on 21st May 1650.
This fate does not await you, however !
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on December 19, 2023, 04:57:14 pm: Thanks for your thoughts @Incandescent and @HC Andersen.
It'll be interesting to hear what others think.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: H C Andersen on December 18, 2023, 11:31:43 am: IMO, it's as near a slam dunk as one can get.

'Notice to Owner Date' is given.
'Date of Posting' is given.

The NTO is only required to carry the 'a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted,'

It's not for the authority to subsequently try and define the meaning of their terms in a NOR. Too late. Had they complied with the regs then no further explanation would have been required.

OP, register an appeal - 'procedural impropriety'.

By leading with signs in your reps this opened the flood gates to them waffling on, an opportunity which they embraced with both hands. I recommend you do not do this in your appeal. Lead with your strongest point - because this evidence is objective - and add signs if you must do.

If the authority have any sense they will not contest. But I have a feeling that they actually believe in their position and so would have to be disabused of this by an adjudicator. My feelings here are supported by the way in which dates have been dealt with in the NOR:
Top of page 1 - a date (18 Dec.) without a reference;
Details of PCN/Notice to Owner - Date of Notice 18 Dec.
Section 3 - references payment and appeals periods to 28 days beginning on date of service of 'Notice of Rejection'. So when is this, 2 working days after 18th or after 14th.

This is not a b****y guessing game.

But as it's clear that their processes are geared to ignoring the regs and instead using Luton-defined terms and dates they'll probably contest at adjudication.

IMO, they should not stand a hope in hell.

Wait for others.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: Incandescent on December 18, 2023, 12:40:43 am: Frankly, I don't think you have a slam-dunk win here, and as they have reinstated the discount, you need to consider if it is worth taking the double-or-quits gamble at TPT.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on December 18, 2023, 12:18:45 am: Hi all,

AN UPDATE on representation

Luton Borough council replied to the representation with a NOTICE OF REJECTION which I have attached below. I received this in post on Saturday 16th Dec 2023.

The main reason for rejection is relating to the signage; they appear to take a different view of the regulation that " sign should normally be erected within 15m of the start and end of the prohibition"
They argue that "this refers to the beginning and the end of the restriction, not during the restriction". see pages 2-3 of notice of rejection attached.

Finally, they reinstituted the discounted charge of £35 which must be paid before 28/12/2023.

Thanks for your thoughts. And best compliments of the season

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: DancingDad on November 06, 2023, 04:29:15 pm: Within your write up there is not reason not to use the appropriate Grounds as headings

ie The Contravention Did Not Occur (due to Inadequate Signage)
Procedural Impropriety etc
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 06, 2023, 04:03:39 pm: Agree. Will do.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: DancingDad on November 06, 2023, 09:55:16 am: None of the above
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 06, 2023, 05:54:05 am: Hi,

I went on Luton website to submit appeal but the grounds of representation are not exactly the same as in the NTO. The option of
- There has been a procedural impropriety on behalf of the authority
[which is the premise of appeal is missing]

The closest 2 options amongst others I think are the two below but these do not quite mean the same as impropriety on behalf of authority.
I wonder if best to go with None of the above
see attached screenshot

Others
I didn't see any signs or lines

The signs / markings were unclear

None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
Any other reason

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: cp8759 on November 05, 2023, 05:13:23 pm: As DancingDad says, the signage point should come first so points should be about the signage, and shift the other points down.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 05, 2023, 05:04:06 pm: Hi all,

this be draft representation I'm looking to send. I tried to capture most of the arguments proffered above...excessive or too little? let me know your mind

Dear Luton Borough Council, Parking Services, Town Hall, Luton
LU1 2BQ

Dear Sir,
PCN Number: LU06800240
I refer to the NTO in respect of the above PCN, see copy enclosed. I hereby make representation on the grounds of procedural impropriety on behalf of the authority.
[1]As you will see, the notice gives a 'Notice to Owner Date' of 11 October 2023 and a 'Date of Posting' of 9 October. This is a procedural impropriety because the date of the notice is clearly not the date it was posted. The NTO is further rendered improper because the recipient is unable to assess which date, if either, is the date of posting which therefore renders all subsequent references to payment and appeals meaningless because they can only be calculated by reference to the date of service which itself is predicated on the date of posting.
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 Notice to owner 20.—(1) Where— (a)a penalty charge notice has been given with respect to a vehicle under regulation 9, and
(3) A notice to owner must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(2) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations, state—
(a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted,

[2] the notice's statement that the penalty will be increased (as opposed to 'may' which is prescribed under the regulations) is a further impropriety. [cf Regulation 2022 section 20 (3) (g)]
(g)that if, after the payment period has expired, no representations have been made under regulation 5 of the 2022 Appeals Regulations and the penalty charge has not been paid, the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the applicable surcharge,

[3] signage was inadequate as there was no sign within the required distance of start of the prohibition [Traffic Signs Manual 3:13.4.15. A sign should normally be erected within 15 m of the start and end of the prohibition]

[4] I believe that council has acted improperly and in breach of regulations for the above reasons; and request that this PCN be cancelled

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: DancingDad on November 05, 2023, 10:38:56 am: Start with inadequate signage, add the flaw as a PI second, amost an afterthought.
Council may cancel on signage rather then have flaws in their paperwork exposed

Similarly TPT adjudicators generally prefer to have a possibly innocent motorist then a guilty one trying to weasel out with a technical challenge
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 05, 2023, 02:12:06 am: Thanks all.
I'll draft the challenge ASAP and send
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: Incandescent on November 04, 2023, 08:26:48 pm: And.........
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022

Notice to owner
20.—(1) Where—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been given with respect to a vehicle under regulation 9, and
(b)the period of 28 days specified in the penalty charge notice as the period within which the penalty charge is to be paid has expired without that charge being paid,
the enforcement authority concerned may serve a notice (a “notice to owner”) on the person who appears to it to have been the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred.

(2) A notice to owner may not be served after the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning with the relevant date.

(3) A notice to owner must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(2) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations, state—

(a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted,
(b)the name of the enforcement authority serving the notice,
(c)the amount of the penalty charge payable,
(d)the date on which the penalty charge notice was served,
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer who served the penalty charge notice under regulation 9 believed that a penalty charge was payable with respect to the vehicle,
(f)that the penalty charge, if not already paid, must be paid within “the payment period” as defined by regulation 3(2)(a) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations,
(g)that if, after the payment period has expired, no representations have been made under regulation 5 of the 2022 Appeals Regulations and the penalty charge has not been paid, the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the applicable surcharge, and
(h)the amount of the increased penalty charge.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 07:58:36 pm: To be honest it would be much better if people embedded pictures rather than relying on attachments that need to be opened next time, for our sanity here is the NTO agian:

(https://i.imgur.com/1tW422G.png)

@fttboy HCA has identified a fundamental flaw in the NTO, and as a result your chances of success have gone from maybe 60-70% to well over 90%.

I recommend you send his draft, and you can add a line or two about the signage being inadequate if you want.

The deadline to make representations is Tuesday so I wouldn't wait any further, go onto the council website (https://www.luton.gov.uk/Page/Show) and submit the representation asap, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 04, 2023, 11:12:17 am: Sorry for the confusion..typo!
I did not receive rejection of my representation. There was email acknowledging the challenge..below

Dear...

Thank you for submitting your appeal using the Luton Borough Council's ChallengeSmarti website.

Your challenge has been received and allocated to your case.

Please note that your case will remain on hold until a decision has been made.

Do not make payment until you have received a response to your challenge. Payment is deemed as acceptance of liability and the case will be closed.

Regards

Luton Borough Council's Appeals Team

Case number: LU06800240
Vehicle registration:
Contravention: 01 - No waiting
Date and time of contravention: 03/07/2023 10:57

Reason for appeal: 'I didn't see any signs or lines'
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: H C Andersen on November 04, 2023, 08:17:26 am: There was response to the challenge to say that it was rejected.

I don't quite follow. Did they reply or not, do you have a copy and in what form?

In any event, you will make reps to the authority on the grounds of procedural impropriety.

As a framework:
Dear Sir,
PCN ***********

I refer to the NTO in respect of the above, see copy enclosed.

As you will see, the notice gives a 'Notice to Owner Date' of 11 October 2023 and a 'Date of Posting' of 9 October. This is a procedural impropriety because the date of the notice is clearly not the date it was posted. The NTO is further rendered improper because the recipient is unable to assess which date, if either, is the date of posting which therefore renders all subsequent references to payment and appeals meaningless because they can only be calculated by reference to the date of service which itself is predicated on the date of posting. I would also add that even if these could be calculated the notice's statement that the penalty will be increased(as opposed to 'may' which is prescribed under the regulations) is a further impropriety.

Hugs....
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 04, 2023, 05:04:34 am: Hi,

I believe that the NTO would have arrived on 11/10/2023 or the following day although I didn't see it until some days later.
I did not contact Luton council after I challenged online and received email acknowledging the same. There was response to the challenge to say that it was rejected.

How should I proceed now? Based on argument re: sign. Or is there any other way?
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: H C Andersen on November 02, 2023, 10:53:52 am: OP, I want to broaden the discussion pl.

You challenged online but did not receive a substantive response. So, have you contacted them to ask what's happened?

You then posted: 'some days ago I received a NTO..'. Some days!! You posted this on Oct 29th and the NTO is dated 11 October!

....or is it???

The NTO states:
'Notice to Owner Date: 11/10/2023

Date of Posting: 9/10/2023'

Neat trick and IMO a virtually guaranteed win at representations or adjudication, as is '...the council will increase the penalty charge by 50% and serve a charge certificate'!

3) A notice to owner must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(2) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations, state—

(a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted,

So I wouldn't get too hung up on signs.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: DancingDad on November 02, 2023, 07:46:16 am: It is certainly a valid argument though ultimately will depend on an adjudicator.
Should also be noted that there is almost a 4 minute difference between the sign photo and the contravention photos, indicative of some distance between locations.
To be fair the timing does coincide with observation times.

Council will argue that the motorist has a duty to check restriction signs when parking.
The opposite also applies that councils have a duty to clearly sign restrictions.
While it is clear from the SYL that a restriction may apply but the nearest sign being 45 yards away and more like 60 yards from the point of entry to the road, this can hardly be said to clearly sign
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on November 02, 2023, 07:27:49 am: I'm not sure if it's the same sign but the nearest one I would find is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/54ib63LHbBYQabk88

Assuming that's the nearest sign, it would be over 45 yards from your car

Hi,

I can confirm that this is the nearest sign even as of now
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on October 31, 2023, 05:54:27 am: Hi all,

thank you for taking time to look at this. I really appreciate.

I will check and confirm the signage and let you know
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 07:10:54 pm: I think you have an argument to make around the signage. Looking at this council photo:

(https://i.imgur.com/3yOSYcN.jpg)

it is clear you were parked here https://maps.app.goo.gl/jyoVSdfFpDPeTaXT6 opposite the garage with the white doors:

The CEO took a photo of this sign:

(https://i.imgur.com/yPVv6U2.jpg)

I'm not sure if it's the same sign but the nearest one I would find is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/54ib63LHbBYQabk88

Assuming that's the nearest sign, it would be over 45 yards from your car:

(https://i.imgur.com/jP9gtHT.png)

Incandescent has identified some other signs, but signs that are either on the other side of the road or completely out of sight don't count. The Traffic Signs Manual at chapter 3 says:

13.4.15. A sign should normally be erected within 15 m of the start and end of the prohibition

15 metres is 16.4 yards, and in this case the only sign on that side of the road is over 80 yards from the start of the prohibition (which starts at the junction with Dunstable Road.

However before going all-in on this argument, are you able to go back and check if the signage situation has changed at all since the google car last went round? We don't need any photos, we just need you to tell us if the signs visible on google street view in 2019 are still the only signs there.

I've also requested the traffic regulation order for this location.
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: Incandescent on October 29, 2023, 12:33:14 am: Well, here's a sign on Belper Road (GSV March 2019).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NSJqBHnqN5tsoEbU6
and here's another
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ur59onFVQHqJTypw6
and another
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cWoV5kSnyeVLUxAD6
and yet another
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gx944q8WRVqpdmLW9
Sorry, but I don't think your argument of lack of signage will wash on this fairly short street, but see what the others say. Of course these signs may no longer be there, as latest GSV is 2019

Note
You've called all your documents a PCN, but you have received the Notice to Owner, so must either pay or submit representations. At this stage the discounted amount is lost, so unless they re-offer it when rejecting your representations, it will be a no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. If you're going for lack of signage, you're going to have to do some leg work to prove lack of signs, as GSV view is of 4 years ago
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on October 28, 2023, 10:49:16 pm: And more pictures that show no signage, all of which I included in my rep to council

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on October 28, 2023, 10:46:11 pm: Hi,

I have attached rest of documents from Luton council including the email reply I got for initial representation.
In the email I note disparity in the meaning of code 01 (is it no waiting or restricted parking), and I wonder if that is another issue I can highlight in challenging this.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Luton PCN: contravention code 01 parked in restricted street during prescribed hours
Post by: fttboy on October 28, 2023, 09:59:38 pm: Hello,

on 3rd July this year I got PCN for parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours. On the council website showing the car parked on the said street there was also what would appear to be the signage indicating the prohibited hours of 09:00-11:00 hours.
However, in reality there was no sign when I packed and certainly none when I arrived to find the PCN. So I took pictures of the street from different directions with PCN still in place under the windscreen wiper blade. I then made representation on the council website uploading pictures that clearly show that there was no signage at the time of alleged contravention. I couldn't tell you where the civil enforcement officer obtained the signage posted on the website; it was not from that location. I got acknowledgement by way of email.

I didn't receive any further correspondence from Luton until some days ago when I got Notice to the owner by post, saying that the penalty charge has not been paid. And the amount due is £70 (I challenged the PCN within the discount period of 14 days). it appears to me that council failed to consider my representation (online) and accompanying evidence. And have simple ratcheted up their right to enforce.
How should go about challenging this now? See attached documents

Thanking you for your kind assistance

[attachment deleted by admin]