Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Bullit70 on October 28, 2023, 03:05:11 pm

Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on January 10, 2024, 09:21:43 pm
A great win for the motorist and fantastic work by Mr CP.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Hippocrates on January 09, 2024, 09:54:49 am
Quote from: cp8759 on January 09, 2024, 01:04:03 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1M28mFAUgQenu5ejE4F2uI3sVqN77DT-k).

Well done.  I see they have named a road/street after you!
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on January 09, 2024, 01:04:03 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1M28mFAUgQenu5ejE4F2uI3sVqN77DT-k).
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Hippocrates on November 13, 2023, 08:42:25 pm
Looks like a job for Mr cp8759.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on November 13, 2023, 06:45:34 pm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WUpal4wGD-kcWyDBcdetMsBVAT-6M05a/view?usp=drivesdk

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: John U.K. on November 11, 2023, 06:32:03 pm
Please to post up the rejection.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on November 11, 2023, 06:17:22 pm
Evening

As predicted,Camden have turned down my appeal and given me the option of paying the £65 or challenging the decision via the Environment & Traffic Adjudicators.

I wish to lodge an appeal.

All advice gratefully received.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 11:42:44 pm
Quote from: Bullit70 on November 01, 2023, 11:02:57 pm
Much appreciated. Will submit tomorrow and report back the outcome.
The outcome will be that they'll reject but don't worry about that, we'll help you with the appeal to the independent tribunal.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on November 01, 2023, 11:02:57 pm
Much appreciated. Will submit tomorrow and report back the outcome.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 10:49:52 pm
Quote from: Bullit70 on October 31, 2023, 07:34:27 pm
Should I wait for the council to send me the extended video footage, which should show me reversing out of the zone,before I submit a letter of appeal?
There is no extended video footage, the camera records so many frames when an event is detected, nothing else is saved. Here's a better draft:

Dear London Borough of Camden,

I challenge liability on the basis of de-minimis: as the video shows, I realised my mistake and immediately reversed out. I did not therefore gain any advantage over other motorists and no traffic management purpose would be served by enforcing this PCN.

I trust that in the circumstances you will agree to cancel the penalty.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on November 01, 2023, 02:42:14 pm
Vehicle Registration No. YK65XUD
PCN: CU65142057

Date of this notice: 25/10/2023

Date of contravention: 11/10/2023


Dear Sir/Madam

I have received the above PCN and wish to appeal. This is the first time I have been in this area of Camden and would not be familiar with the local geography.


I would put forward the argument that the alleged contravention did not occur and upon realising my error, I have taken immediate action to rectify and reversed out of the road in question, which is shown in the video you provided. De minimis would be a suitable description.


I have also researched online and found similar cases to mine involving this exact location, that have been successfully dismissed by the appeals adjudicator.

I kindly request that this PCN is cancelled.

Yours sincerely
Mr #####


Should I include the text in red at this stage?


Many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Incandescent on October 31, 2023, 09:24:17 pm
whatever you do, don't miss any deadlines for submitting your reps !  I would submit your reps now.The fact the council cut the video short is for them to sort out. One has to wonder why the video ends just as the car is about to start moving backwards !
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on October 31, 2023, 07:34:27 pm
"A basic representation that the alleged contravention did not occur would suffice, but I would add something about you realising your mistake and reversing out.

Post a draft on here first."

Should I wait for the council to send me the extended video footage, which should show me reversing out of the zone,before I submit a letter of appeal?

Cheers
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on October 30, 2023, 03:05:11 pm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eps5VNp04V1uDE24Z0QR4kWwc4fylGi3/view?usp=drivesdk


Can you view the PCN now?

Thanks
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on October 30, 2023, 12:59:57 pm
Here is The Camden (Camden Square Area) Traffic Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=131YIX9lol3ouH85bMSxJkKACpAgP9aUe), which appears to have the same drafting issue as the previous version.

A basic representation that the alleged contravention did not occur would suffice, but I would add something about you realising your mistake and reversing out.

Post a draft on here first.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 10:01:34 pm
No, I'm just getting this:

(https://i.imgur.com/wJh6ojM.png)
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on October 29, 2023, 09:01:30 pm
Good evening

I've just clicked on the image shack link and it opened. Are you able to view the PCN?

Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 04:34:05 pm
Imageshack seems to be down at the moment, could you please re-post the PCN on imgur? Guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/).

I've won twice before at this location, see these cases:

Sudhish Kumar v London Borough of Camden (2220603349, 28 September 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1xb2YGXmxwlBbqKt19wcsqZ1GMnTyR_K8)
Bertan Atalay v London Borough of Camden (2230051861, 01 March 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1zh7lJdBnyNvLrOsMZzCjGRS78zUZ3KpG)

The announcement at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4377929 suggests the order has been made permanent, but there is no indication they have fixed the drafting error. I will however request a copy of the new order just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Incandescent on October 28, 2023, 07:40:58 pm
Quote
Am I reliant on the council classing this as a genuine mistake on my behalf and my first time appealing this type of contravention?
Not totally.  You recognised your error, and reversed out. Yes, you passed the sign, but if I were an adjudicator, I'd put this down as de minimis. Trouble is you'll have to risk the full PCN to get an unbiased opinion. All the council are interested in is your mone

Quote
Are there any grounds of defence due to the amount of time that has elapsed between the date of contravention and the date/arrival of the notice?
Nope. They have 28 days from contravention date to serve a PCN.

In the absence of PCN errors and errors in the traffic order establishing the restriction, all you've got is de minimis unless the others can come up with something.

As you have to submit reps and get a refusal so you can go to London Tribunals, why not submit reps on the basis that as you passed the sign you realised you had made an error, so immediately backed-out. Post up their inevitable rejection when you get it. It's this or cough-up.
Title: Re: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Pastmybest on October 28, 2023, 05:16:41 pm
Funny how the video cuts off when your reversing lights come on, you could argue de minimis and that the mischief the restriction is there to prevent didn't happen providing you did reverse out and take a different route
Title: Camden. Murray Street, Code 52M.Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)
Post by: Bullit70 on October 28, 2023, 03:05:11 pm
Received the PCN yesterday. First time in this part of Camden. As can be seen on the x8 second video clip, once I realise my error, I have begun to reverse out of the designated area. I have asked the council to provide me with a longer duration video, which would clearly show me reversing out.

Am I reliant on the council classing this as a genuine mistake on my behalf and my first time appealing this type of contravention?

Are there any grounds of defence due to the amount of time that has elapsed between the date of contravention and the date/arrival of the notice?


It also states on their website; The map displayed is an approximate location and for reference purposes only. It is not 100% accurate. For an accurate location refer to the street and restricted area recorded on your PCN.

No mapping data available.

Copy of PCN:
https://imageshack.com/i/pogcBZJjj

Video footage: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ejBTcZUxv7pIs6FCOTis7OxfnpUeqKNt/view?usp=drivesdk

Google Street view
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7t1XQLz9x6djfTxF8

Hope that is everything! All help much appreciated.