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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: PCN fines on October 27, 2023, 03:47:45 pm

Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 08:12:51 pm
@PCN fines any updates on this?
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on March 24, 2024, 04:17:24 pm
@PCN fines

Please let us have an update as to where you've got to with this case.

I've been told that Newham have recently added a "Flying Motorcycle" sign at the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway. I don't have a photo.

You will recall that there was no such sign present at the time you entered and parked. The photo that you took and posted here on the 7th Nov above confirms that there was no sign.

If you can do so, I suggest that you return to the scene of the crime and confirm that they've changed the signs and take some pictures. And also from the other end of the street opposite the mouth of Victoria Road where the Flying Motorcycle sign actually was when you parked. The one in the Council evidence photos.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on March 06, 2024, 06:24:17 pm
Park this for use if it comes to an appeal.

Google Street View (https://maps.app.goo.gl/xrYo8jX2GGEcydFs9) from Victoria Street, Stratford shows the flying motorcycle sign on the branch of West Ham Lane than runs along the side of the Old Town Hall. The sign in the Council evidence pack.

The flying motorcycle sign is facing Victoria Street. So it was facing away from where you parked.
That stretch of West Ham Lane is blocked at its entrance by three upright bollard pillars.

You entered from Broadway, where there is only a no through route sign. You couldn't have passed the flying motorcycle sign, even if you wanted to, as the route is blocked by the bollards.

The GSV shows the sign clearly. However the view of the bollards is obstructed by traffic at the lights. So try and get your own photo if it comes to an appeal.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 09, 2024, 05:50:10 pm
@PCN fines.

Representations (challenge) against Newham NTOs can be submitted online.
You should also get an acknowledgement email at the email address you provided online.

Did you get your representations submitted yesterday and were you able to upload the photo and appointment letter?

 
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Incandescent on February 08, 2024, 11:15:59 pm
Quote from: Neil B on February 08, 2024, 10:50:54 pm
Quote from: Enceladus on February 06, 2024, 09:58:57 am
8th Feb 2024 = Thu = day 28 of 28 day period to pay of submit a formal representation
In the absence of further replies can I just emphasise that our representations need to reach the council by midnigt tonight.
++++1 !!
Far too many people seem to think it is the date they submit reps. Not so !! It is the date of their receipt by the council that matters
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Neil B on February 08, 2024, 10:50:54 pm
Quote from: Enceladus on February 06, 2024, 09:58:57 am
8th Feb 2024 = Thu = day 28 of 28 day period to pay of submit a formal representation
In the absence of further replies can I just emphasise that our representations need to reach the council by midnigt tonight.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 08, 2024, 06:29:57 pm
Thank you very much for this,
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Hippocrates on February 08, 2024, 02:59:38 pm
Looks excellent to me.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 08, 2024, 12:48:33 pm
Here's something that you can use. Perhaps edit it down to make it shorter. Don't forget to attach a scan or a photo of your Moorfields appointment letter and the photo you posted up earlier that shows the "No through route / except cycles" sign

"I challenge liability for PCN PN36945112 on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.

I entered West Ham Lane from Broadway. This stretch of West Ham Lane is adjacent to the Old Town Hall.
I intended to park in one of the parking bays because I needed to attend an appointment at the Moorfields eye hospital on Broadway. (Please attached appointment letter.)

Having lawfully entered the zone in order to access the parking bays, there was no signage indicating that I could not park as I did. And nothing to indicate that I could not enter this area. How else is it possible to access the parking bays and the entrance to the old Town Hall car park without entering this stretch of West Ham Lane?

At the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway I passed a "no through road" sign with a plate underneath that says "Except cycles". Please see the attached photo.
Then I passed a time limited parking bay on the left.
And then passed a time limited loading bay also on the left.
So there were bays which are "of a type" I was entitled to park in.

On this occasion the bays were fully occupied so I parked in line with the end of the loading bay. I now realise that this was outside the bay markings and may have been the pavement. The demarcation between the footway, parking bays and the carriageway is not clear as they are all at the same level with no proper kerbs.

I did not pass a no motor vehicles  sign as shown in your CEO’s photo that says “Pedestrian and cycle zone” and  has a plate "Except for access". The photo CEO took does not show this sign as being at the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway.  There is no such sign visible from where my car was parked. The sign appears to be sited further along West Ham Lane near the building behind the Old Town Hall, beyond the entrance to the town hall car park, somewhere near the junction of West Ham Lane and Tramway. The Council's own evidence photo shows the flying motorcycle  sign to be adjacent to the building behind the town hall, the one that's covered in hoarding and dust sheets. That’s beyond where I parked and near to the junction with Tramway.

I reiterate that I never reached this flying motorcycle sign indicating a pedestrian zone. Your own evidence photo shows that it was not located at the Broadway end of West Ham Lane.

In any event the no motor vehicles sign sign also says "except for access", and I did not use this entrance as a through route, on the contrary I needed access to park within the zone.
My wife remained in the car and during this time two CEOs approached and each issued a PCN,  This meaning that for this one parking incident I was issued two PCNs,  one of which you cancelled stating that due to not being able to retrieve important information about the case you accepted my representation. So why not accept for both cases?

I have attached evidence of my medical appointment and would appreciate it if it is considered on this occasion and the PCN is cancelled."
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 08, 2024, 11:43:42 am
You can't just cut and paste some random sentences and hope to create a successful challenge (formal representation).

My remarks were to help you rebut some of the points in the rejection letter and to highlight where you might improve your original informal representation. For example at no point did you pass the flying motorcycle sign. And there doesn't seem to be any such sign at the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway etc. At least that's what your photo above suggests.

I'll try and post up an improved draft in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 07, 2024, 08:16:50 pm
Pls have a look to see if this is any good
Thank you
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 07, 2024, 08:15:52 pm
Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability for PCN PN36945112 on the grounds that the alleged contravention is incorrect. Firstly the sign relied upon by the CEO does not indicate any waiting prohibitions, so it is not at all clear that there are any parking restrictions in force at all.
I entered West Ham Lane from Broadway. This stretch of West Ham Lane is adjacent to the Old Town Hall.

I did not pass the flying motorcycle sign that has "Except for access".
The photo CEO took does not show any flying motorcycle sign at the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway.
I passed a "no through road" sign with a plate underneath that says "Except cycles".
I passed a time limited parking bay on the left.
And then passed a time limited loading bay on the left.
So there were bays which are "of a type" I were entitled to park in.
On this occasion the bays were occupied so I parked in line with the end of the loading bay, outside its markings.

I never reached the flying motorcycle sign indicating a pedestrian zone, it's beyond the entrance to the town hall car park, somewhere near the junction of West Ham Lane and Tramway.

The Council's own evidence photo shows the flying MC sign to be adjacent to the building behind the town hall, the one that's covered in hoarding and dust sheets.

In any event the sign at the entrance to the zone says "except for access", and I did not use this entrance as a through route, on the contrary I needed access to park within the zone. I note there are parking bays within the zone and in order to access those bays, it is necessary to enter the zone. I parked as I did because I needed to attend an appointment at the Moorfields eye hospital. Having lawfully entered the zone in order to access parking bays, there was no signage indicating that I could not park as I did.

My wife remained in the car and during this time two CEOs approached and each issued a PCN, this meaning that for this one parking incident I was issued 2 PCN, 1 which you cancelled stating that due to not being able to retrieve important information about the case you accepted my representation so why not accept for both cases.


I have attached evidence of my medical appointment and would appreciate it if it is considered on this occasion and the PCN is cancelled.


Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 07, 2024, 04:35:17 pm
You're best off writing a new draft and posting it up.

Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 07, 2024, 12:35:46 pm
Ok
Any idea what I should add and this out pls
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 07, 2024, 04:34:05 am
I think you need to revise it.

As I see it you entered West Ham Lane from Broadway. This stretch of West Ham Lane is adjacent to the Old Town Hall.

You did not pass the flying motorcycle sign that has "Except for access".
The photo you posted above does not show any flying motorcycle sign at the entrance to West Ham Lane from Broadway.
You did pass a "no through road" sign with a plate underneath that says "Except cycles".
Next you passed a time limited parking bay on the left.
And then passed a time limited loading bay on the left.
So there were bays which are "of a type" you were entitled to park in.
On this occasion the bays were occupied so you parked in line with the end of the loading bay, outside it's markings.

You never reached the flying motorcycle sign indicating a pedestrian zone, it's somewhere in front of you, beyond the entrance to the town hall car park, somewhere near the junction of West Ham Lane and Tramway. Maybe you can't even see it from where you parked.

The Council's own evidence photo shows the flying MC sign to be adjacent to the building behind the town hall, the one that's covered in hoarding and dust sheets.

I would argue the alleged contravention is incorrect.  They can't rely on a sign that you haven't even reached. If your guilty of anything, it's parking on the pavement.

I also suggest that an issue in that the traffic order seems to prevent all vehicles from that stretch of West Ham Lane and that would prevent access to the parking bay, the loading bay and the entrance to P&D car park behind the Town Hall. So the signs present on the ground don't seem to reflect the traffic order.

Typical Newham, it's a bowl of spaghetti.

Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 06, 2024, 08:51:42 pm
Is this draft any good
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 06, 2024, 08:50:38 pm
Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability for PCN PN36945112 on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur, and that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. Firstly the sign relied upon by the CEO does not indicate any waiting prohibitions, so it is not at all clear that there are any parking restrictions in force at all. It seems to me that maybe the council should have issued a PCN under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 for code 53 - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone, but it's obviously too late for that now.

In any event the sign at the entrance to the zone says "except for access", and I did not use this road as a through route, on the contrary I needed access to park within the zone. I note there are parking bays within the zone and in order to access those bays, it is necessary to enter the zone. In the event the bays were not of a type that I was permitted to park in, but in the absence of any other parking restrictions I parked as I did because I needed to attend an appointment at the Moorfields eye hospital. Having lawfully entered the zone in order to access parking bays, there was no signage indicating that I could not park as I did.

My wife remained in the car and during this time two CEOs approached and each issued a PCN, this meaning that for this one parking incident I was issued 2 PCN, 1 which you cancelled stating that due to not being able to retrieve important information about the case you accepted my representation so why not accept for both cases.

I also see on the notice to owner there is no date mentioned being the date of service, it is therefore unclear as to which date it is being referred to.

I have attached evidence of my medical appointment and would appreciate it if it is considered on this occasion and the PCN is cancelled.


Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 06, 2024, 03:29:58 pm
Sorry had a bereavement
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on February 06, 2024, 09:58:57 am
12th Dec 2023 = Date of rejection of informal representations
10th Jan 2024 = Wed = Date of issue and date of posting of Notice to Owner
12th Jan 2024 = Fri = Deemed date of services of NtO and day 1 of 28 period
8th Feb 2024 = Thu = day 28 of 28 day period to pay of submit a formal representation

You're up against it timewise. You must get representations delivered to the Council by close of business this Thursday coming. Any reason for the long delays in posting up these docs on the forum?

You've let the discount option expire so you might as well submit formal reps and appeal to the independent adjudicator as you have no financial incentive to do otherwise. There is an outside chance that Newham will re-offer the discount if you submit formal reps.

Please post up a draft of your proposed formal representation.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 05, 2024, 11:17:31 pm
Yes I have confirmation of appointment
The notice does not the discount it ask for full payment.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: cp8759 on February 04, 2024, 07:08:40 pm
You can't appeal yet, you can only make a representation to the council asking them to cancel the penalty. If that is rejected, you can then appeal to the tribunal.

Do you have an appointment letter from the hospital or anything to confirm the nature of the appointment? We could make a representation without it, but it would strengthen your case as I think we could cause a failure to consider, which would give you a ground to appeal in its own right.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 04, 2024, 10:14:17 am
The notice to owner is attached
Thanks
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on February 03, 2024, 10:58:51 pm
Hello there,
I have received a reply from the council ti both the representation and the notice to owner.
Please see attached.
Any help as to how I can appeal this please.
Thank you

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: cp8759 on November 30, 2023, 11:54:01 pm
For later: The Newham (Prescribed Routes) (No. 2) Traffic Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=16P_UzAniSmHvGifZOL1Zjit1KmlBXMBF).
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on November 06, 2023, 06:43:18 pm
Ok thanks
Will Wait for the reply and update on hear
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on November 02, 2023, 01:28:33 pm
Your 3rd photo shows a "No Through Road" sign.
Your 1st photo shows a time limited parking bay sign.
Your 2nd photo shows a time limited loading bay sign.

So access is required for the parking and loading bays and in any event this road also provides 24x7 access to and from the car park at the rear of the Old Town Hall.

The Council evidence photos show a "Flying Motorcycle" sign, but that's well in front of your car, you haven't reached it yet.

It seems that you parked outside the parking bay boundaries, so I would say you're guilty of a pavement parking infringement. But that's not the allegation on the PCNs. So the contravention(s) did not occur, you hadn't passed any signs indicating a pedestrian only zone.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on November 02, 2023, 10:03:34 am
Hi all,

Please see photos attached of the signs
Thanks

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on October 31, 2023, 08:25:36 pm
Thank you for the draft, I submitted it like you said and I will go by to take a photo of the sign
And post it hear
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on October 30, 2023, 01:21:39 pm
The discount window expires tomorrow Tuesday the 31st October. So make sure you get your informal representation (challenge) submitted before close of business tomorrow. The Council will re-offer the discount for a further 14 days if or when they reject. Do this online so it's delivered the same day. Please see here. (https://www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/parking-enforcement-fines/4)

You should get emailed acknowledgements so keep them safe. Check your spam folder.

One representation for each PCN and cross reference the other PCN on each representation.

Are you able to get a picture of the sign in the parking bay? It's somewhere behind where your car was parked.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 02:27:34 pm
The PCN numbers and number plate are visible on the payment slips at the bottom of the PCNs, so I've had a look at the council photos:

PN36945112:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ah06AM6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZR2O8if.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/O984AA7.jpg)

PN36967421:

(https://i.imgur.com/w8oZO16.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/t8wtNZy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pCXt0GH.jpg)

The obvious problem here is that the sign does not convey any waiting restriction, and really the council should have issued a moving traffic PCN.

Here's a draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability for PCNs PN36967421 and PN36945112 on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur, and that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. Firstly the sign relied upon by the CEO does not indicate any waiting prohibitions, so it is not at all clear that there are any parking restrictions in force at all. It seems to me that maybe the council should have issued a PCN under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 for code 53 - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone, but it's obviously too late for that now.

In any event the sign at the entrance to the zone says "except for access", and I did not use this road as a through route, on the contrary I needed access to park within the zone. I note there are parking bays within the zone and in order to access those bays, it is necessary to enter the zone. In the event the bays were not of a type that I was permitted to park in, but in the absence of any other parking restrictions I parked as I did because I needed to attend an appointment at the Moorfields eye hospital. Having lawfully entered the zone in order to access parking bays, there was no signage indicating that I could not park as I did.

My wife remained in the car and during this time two CEOs approached and each issued a PCN, this meaning that for this one parking incident I am now faced with £260 worth of penalty charges, discounted to £130 if paid within 14 days. Quite plainly this is a demand that exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as a result of which the statutory ground of appeal at regulation 5(4)(e) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 is made out.

It follows that both penalties must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

You must submit this on the council website https://parking.newham.gov.uk/pages/home.aspx against both PCNs, and keep screenshots of the confirmation pages.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Enceladus on October 27, 2023, 05:28:57 pm
At the top of the Forum there's a prominent Read Me First post.

It says amongst other things:

"Leave in the PCN number and vehicle numberplate (VRM). The ONLY things you should obscure are your name and address where they appear, NOTHING ELSE. We may need ALL sides of ALL pages but it is OK to start a case with just the front of the PCN."

Please correct and repost your PCN images.

Were you parked in the little road/cul-de-sac that runs between the Stratford Town Hall and the pub? GSV here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/HLCvgi37tNFR7fdAA).

If so this cul-de-sac provides access to the gate at the rear of the Town Hall used for the car park. I'm not sure that this is a pedestrian only area, there appears to be a parking sign on the pub side and bays indicated by a change in the brickwork. GSV only show the back (pavement side) of the sign for some reason. It used to be a Loading Only bay, so likely still is. Wrong contravention if we can get that confirmed.
Title: Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: Pastmybest on October 27, 2023, 04:18:56 pm
The second one will be cancelled ( but at what stage i cannot say) as a continuous contravention, but i would like to see all the council photos and some up to date ones to see what sign they rely on
Title: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
Post by: PCN fines on October 27, 2023, 03:47:45 pm
Hi there,
Was wondering if I could get some help please.
I received 2 PCN in 10mins at Stratford E154QB Morefields eye hospital.
I had an appointment and was running late and my wife how is pregnant had an appointment in royal London Hospital in tower hamlets both appointments within 1 hour I went to the appointment leaving my wife in the back seat of the car and the CEO came and issued the PCN, my wife got out and told the CEO that my husband went for and appointment and will be back in few minutes he then took the PCN off the windscreen and gave it to my wife.
Then within 10 minutes another CEO came and issued another one and my wife explained the situation and the CEO told her that the first PCN will be cancelled. When I can back yo my car my wife told me what happened and I called the council they told me they will cancel the first PCN I explained the situation they said to appeal. I check on the council website and can see both PCN I open.

I have attached the PCN and photos on the website.

Please advise how I can deal with this issue.

Thank you

[attachment deleted by admin]