Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: waggy on September 13, 2025, 01:40:27 pm
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as i did not write the reps until the 8th you will just have to wait and see what is offered but to be clear any representation made after 14 days negates the right to the discount amount indeed you would have to make reps and the council respond within the 14 days to allow by law the discount rate
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The discount period and amount are prescribed under the Act. Whatever else they choose to do above this is their choice, as are the amounts, although it's always 50%. They'll probably re-offer is you're unsuccessful.
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Dear @Pastmybest,
Thank you very much for your help I submitted those reps on time! Apologies for the delayed response:))
Dear @H C Andersen,
I agree with you, that is what I thought as well. But my discount stage was until 7th October confirmed by their website and a council agent I called. Apparently they add extra time for discount stage due to post taking too long sometimes?? According to the council worker.
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Simple is best, but IMO you should get them to identify the sign as it's not apparent at this stage to which sign the contravention refers.
that would be the obvious thing to do, but councils do not usually think that way and will do no more than rely on the video, and if that is the case so will the adjudicator
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Simple is best, but IMO you should get them to identify the sign as it's not apparent at this stage to which sign the contravention refers.
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I spent a hour or so last night looking about the location,so have to be careful in the wording of reps.Use this
Representation against the imposition of PCN number XXXXXXXX VRM AA 23 ABC
I am a careful and competent driver who drives for a living. Never would I deliberately ignore a road sign. Before making this representation I have examined the photographic and video evidence carefully and cannot see a blue sign that it is alleged that i passed.
If I cannot see a sign I cannot surely be convicted of failing to comply with it's instruction and this PCN should be cancelled
I would not go into more detail than this at this point as it will make no difference we can say more if this goes to tribunal
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I spent a hour or so last night looking about the location,so have to be careful in the wording of reps.Use this
Representation against the imposition of PCN number XXXXXXXX VRM AA 23 ABC
I am a careful and competent driver who drives for a living. Never would I deliberately ignore a road sign. Before making this representation I have examined the photographic and video evidence carefully and cannot see a blue sign that it is alleged that i passed.
If I cannot see a sign I cannot surely be convicted of failing to comply with it's instruction and this PCN should be cancelled
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Hoping to submit by tonight during discount stage.
No discount, I'm afraid, this expired weeks ago, you're into full penalty territory now. Of course they might re-offer the reduced payment were they to reject reps.
The latest date for submitting reps which the authority is obliged to consider is 12 Oct.
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Dear @Pastmybest,
Thank you! Appreciate it. Hoping to submit by tonight during discount stage.
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Will do it on Friday reps due 12th of Oct
Been held up, will do later today
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Will do it on Friday reps due 12th of Oct
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Hiya @Pastmybest,
Just reminding regarding the reps, thought I'd wait a bit past Sunday but representation is due in a few days.
Thank you for your time.
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The Op does not have to prove anything that is what the council must do for parking an adjudicator can make an assumption on the balance of probability with a moving traffic case like this they must show that at the time of contravention not only was it in situ but visible at the time any other sign but the s36 one is irrelevant
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Point is what direction arrow did the OP contravene. There is at least one on the railway arch facing an exit from the estate but the video doesn't show the car exiting the estate.
See also:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-london-borough-of-havering-29j-wrong-way-on-a-one-way-street/
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@PMB, Why would there need to be a blue sign in camera shot? It's regular practice for authorities to prove to adjudicators' satisfaction with library pictures that the necessary sign was in situ, they're not required to show the sign in the video.
The video shows clear road markings and a different blue sign and it is irrefutable that the vehicle was travelling the wrong way. IMO, all the authority would need to do is to introduce evidence such as recent library photos or CEO etc. notes to this effect in order to persuade an adjudicator.
Is anyone suggesting that 'the sign' was not in situ?
I still think that visibility vis a vis its position and lack of complementary road marking(which is in situ at the other exit) could be argued, along with any procedural matters.
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Dear @Pastmybest,
Thank you very much, I truly appreciate your help.
God Bless.
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Yes, I will draft a representation for you. If I have not done so by Sunday please remind me, I have a few things on over the next couple of days
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So look at the council evidence, What sign?
Dear @Pastmybest,
Thank you for your advice. Could you please advise on what points I should make in my representation. Been extremely under the weather so been afk last few days.
Thank you for your time :))
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Is the contravention going the wrong way down a one way street. NO. The contravention is failing to comply with the arrow on blue sign. A section 36 contravention, so against the sign not a TMO. So look at the council evidence, What sign?
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IMO, that the car was going the wrong way along a one-way street is irrefutable.
There is no contemporary objective evidence as to why.
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couple of cases that support my view
2220932635
There is evidence that the appellant's vehicle drove in a direction contrary to that required by the traffic management order. The vehicle was leaving Hartley Avenue at its junction with Barking Road. The enforcement authority (EA) has provided evidence of signage facing motorists on Barking Road, entering Hartley Avenue informing them that they may only drive straight on and that it is a one-way road. The driver would not, of course, have seen those signs precisely because he was driving the other way. So that evidence is not relevant. There is no evidence of any signs that would have faced the driver informing him that he may not drive in the direction in which he did on Hartley Road, or that he must drive in the opposite direction on that road, at any point on his journey. In the absence of any signage that the driver would actually have seen, or would have had the opportunity of seeing, this contravention is not proved.
2160166049
The Appellant has attended and I find him to be an honest witness I believe what he tells me.
The issue in this appeal is whether the signage at the point of entry the Appellant's vehicle took to the pedestrian zone in Electric Lane was clearly and adequately signed.
I have considered the evidence and watched the CCTV footage a number of times with the Appellant.
The CCTV footage shows the Appellant's vehicle exiting Electric Lane and I have not been able to see the state of the signage at the Appellant's point of entry on 7 February 2016.
I find that the signage was obscured due to works and high sided vehicles and that the Appellant could not see the sign plates indicating the restriction. Such cases are rare; I find that this is one of them.
The appeal is allowed.
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That's my view and in fact the previous junction is a no-left not a must turn right. Signs on the railway aches are not facing traffic going the wrong way.
See also this case where I've cited a tribunal case.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-london-borough-of-havering-29j-wrong-way-on-a-one-way-street/
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No hard evidence for a defense?????????????? what a crock of sh1t you do not need to evidence a defence the council need to evidence a contravention and i see nowhere on the video any blue sign you failed to contravene
I know they are there in various locations but the council need to evidence that the where visible not obscured by parked vehicles as would be the one at the first junction you can see on the video
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On the issue of the contravention, I don't see that you've any hard evidence for a defence but you could put forward what you've said:
Turned right, didn't see any signs to the contrary;
When PCN received you looked at GSV and saw that there is a solitary traffic sign opposite the exit from the estate which could easily be obscured by parked or passing lorries which might explain why you did not see it.
You also looked at the other exit into Tanner Street where there is a clear 'Turn Left' road marking in addition the white arrow and 'One way' sign.
Had the council signed the exit into Druid as well as that into Tanner no-one could have made your mistake.
You would ask them to exercise discretion on this occasion and to look at bringing the Druid exit up to the standard of Tanner.
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Dear @H C Andersen,
Ahh I see, what points would you recommend I state in my reps?
Yes I am the registered keeper.
Thank you for your time and help mate.
Kind regards,
Ali
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But you must make reps as well.
By the way, are you the registered keeper of the vehicle?
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Dear @Hippocrates
Just saw the PM, will not pay!
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Dear @Hippocrates
I have attached a link for the screenshot of payment page below.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i70wn80uzkinw4848zv8k/Payment-page.jpg?rlkey=kgya1h3890ks9pm6381o6sn5n&st=z1ch3z1z&dl=0
DO NOT PAY THIS. PM sent.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-bus-lane-website/msg89554/#msg89554
https://youtube.com/shorts/NUU8f_LL1o4
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Dear
Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate your help. I will do that and wait for Hippo's input.
I have read a pervious thread for 32d on this same street, on this website, and the PCN was fatally flawed in that case, could that also apply to my case as I think I have the same wording in the second sentence under the evidence pictures.
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It's possible to enter and exit the estate from Tanner Street. When exiting there is a Turn Left plus arrow road marking plus the upright sign opposite. I cannot see any road markings when exiting at Druid.
Or have I missed this?
Just as a driver could miss a solitary upright sign if obscured by a parked and/passing high-sided vehicle.
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I am pretty sure I did not go down through Sweeney Crescent as there is a banned left turn sign and clear markings on the road before turning too. I think they would've definitely included that in the evidence for the PCN as it thoroughly backs up their case, but they did not.
What would you advise I do?
Yes I know what you did. My point is that had you come from Sweeney Crescent the video doesn't show you not obeying a directional arrow you could have seen.
It's tricky as you can't lie but you can play dumb and simply say:
I have viewed your video and I cannot see what directional blue arrow I should have seen and not obeyed coming from that direction. Please would you provide evidence or cancel the PCN.
Also be guided by Hippo if he has something on wordings.
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Dear @stamfordman
I am pretty sure I did not go down through Sweeney Crescent as there is a banned left turn sign and clear markings on the road before turning too. I think they would've definitely included that in the evidence for the PCN as it thoroughly backs up their case, but they did not.
What would you advise I do?
Thank you for your time.
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Dear @Hippocrates
I have attached a link for the screenshot of payment page below.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i70wn80uzkinw4848zv8k/Payment-page.jpg?rlkey=kgya1h3890ks9pm6381o6sn5n&st=z1ch3z1z&dl=0
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You are correct I see them now. I must've forgot or not seen them when I was there. I was delivering parcels and, as an act of habit, as soon as I delivered I set the route to the next stop and followed the route brainlessly thus ending up driving the wrong way down the street @Incandescent
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We've seen people get caught out exiting the estate before.
If you drove in from Abbey Street as you should and then turned in and out of the estate there is a good chance the sign on the railway arches opposite could have been obscured and there is nothing on ehe estate exits to show a one-way street.
But where are directional signs you could have contravened further down Druid? At the next junction with Sweeney Crescent there are (or were) just banned left turn signs.
The video doesn't show a contravention in my view as it doesn't show you exiting the estate.
(https://i.ibb.co/0ybsGNwb/s-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif)
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Go their website and screenshot the payment status page.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-bus-lane-website/msg89554/#msg89554
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We've seen this location before, but I'm not sure what transpired. However, although you say you missed the arrow sign when you came to drive out of the Arnold Estate, the only way you could have got there was to enter Druid St from Abbey Street, and there are two one-way only signs as you turn in : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gu8Tu1J9LUonLndi8
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Hi guys got served a PCN from Southwark council for contravention 32d, driving the wrong way on one-way street. I had driven off from Arnold estate and don't remember seeing any signs telling me I could not turn left, however I do see one on street view. In the evidence provided by the council I cannot see the same sign, seems like its covered by shrubbery or the crowd of people. Is there any way I can appeal this? I was delivering in the area so was not accustomed to these restrictions and made the mistake.
I would really appreciate any advice. Thank you.
PCN: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/b9c1x4utg28hv9839211v/IMG_1709.jpeg?rlkey=ewybdi9vr20al4ogaytnn9iyv&st=zmamr05w&dl=0
GSW: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4987531,-0.0730665,3a,75y,200.6h,81.78t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0xaJlVNEvWBy7eaH-YexDQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.219384778826239%26panoid%3D0xaJlVNEvWBy7eaH-YexDQ%26yaw%3D200.6036055429544!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDkxMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D